That’s why I don’t trust The Planck People. They are disturbingly small.

Are people still Plancking? I thought that was so 2012.

I want to meet intelligent alien life. That’s on my bucket list lol.

Dolphins, who is the second?

Have you met Mark Zuckerberg?

I said intelligent ;)

Dude, he may be fucked in the head, but you have to grant him intelligence. Unfortunately.

CC exoplanet (this is from another galaxy!) fan @KristiGaines

I’ll settle for intelligent human life, which is why I guess I spend time on this forum.

You know it! I saw that!

You know what i can’t get is why we can’t get a better look at the exoplanets closer… water, carbon, etc.

But it is truly amazing what we can detect now…

And still Fermi paradox…i wonder how many of the exo’s we’ve found have life? And shouldn’t life itself be detectable?

I fear you are right and hope you aren’t.

This is a really interesting blog post (I don’t know much about the author, other than he has a PHd in Physics and works at JPL)

It is long so I’ll try and summarize.

While I am 100% certain that the Starship design will continue to evolve in noticeable ways, the progress in two years cannot be understated. Two years ago Starship was a design concept and a mock up. Today it’s a 95% complete prototype that will soon fly to space and may even make it back in one piece.

Starship is designed to be able to launch bulk cargo into LEO in >100 T chunks for <$10m per launch, and up to thousands of launches per year. By refilling in LEO, a fully loaded deep space Starship can transport >100 T of bulk cargo anywhere in the solar system, including the surface of the Moon or Mars, for <$100m per Starship. Starship is intended to be able to transport a million tonnes of cargo to the surface of Mars in just ten launch windows, in addition to serving other incidental destinations, such as maintaining the Starlink constellation or building a big base at the Lunar south pole.

What does this mean? Historically, mission/system design has been grievously afflicted by absurdly harsh mass constraints, since launch costs to LEO are as high as $10,000/kg and single launches cost hundreds of millions. This in turn affects schedule, cost structure, volume, material choices, labor, power, thermal, guidance/navigation/control, and every other aspect of the mission.

He then talks about how fucked up SLS and Artemis are.

Starship will change the way we do business in space, and now is the time to start preparing. Pretending that it doesn’t exist isn’t an adequate strategic hedge, whether Starship flies in 2022, 2025, or never.

What do I mean by strategic hedge? There is a steadily increasing chance that Starship will succeed and total certainty that if it succeeds it will change the industry, therefore the appropriate hedge is to take actions somewhere between total panic that it is already flying, and complete inaction. …
Let me explain the fundamental issue. NASA centers and their contractors build exquisitely complex and expensive robots to launch on conventional rockets and explore the universe. To take JPL as an example, divide the total budget by the mass of spacecraft shipped to the cape and it works out to about $1,000,000/kg. I’m not certain how much mass NASA launches to space per year but, even including ISS, it cannot be much more than about 50 T. This works out to between $100,000/kg for LEO bulk cargo and >$1,000,000/kg for deep space exploration.

Enter Starship. Annual capacity to LEO climbs from its current average of 500 T for the whole of our civilization to perhaps 500 T per week. Eventually, it could exceed 1,000,000 T/year. At the same time, launch costs drop as low as $50/kg, roughly 100x lower than the present. For the same budget in launch, supply will have increased by roughly 100x. How can the space industry saturate this increased launch supply?

I doubt Congress is going to increase NASA’s budget to a trillion dollars, so NASA and industry will have to find a way to produce 100x as much stuff for 1/10th the price. Rovers will have to be $1000/kg and we will need 100 T of them every year. This is comparable in terms of costs and volumes to Ferrari manufacturing,

He gives further examples how unprepared the legacy space industry and NASA are to deal with changes that Starship will bring.

In the comment section, one of the readers says that with hundreds of Starship operating it should be possible to build Solar collectors in Geostationary orbits and beam the energy down to earth for about $.04/KWH this is baseline power and very reliable. It’s much cheaper than current nuclear, or any type of renewable plus storage. Even if is 3-5x times more expensive, with an appropriate Carbon tax it still would be competitive.

I was just coming to post that link!

Anyway, all these stories over the past few years have really got me to appreciate how important culture is to any organization. It seems that when you get everyone into the right mindset, really amazing things can be accomplished. I’ve also been impressed by how completely blind to outside reality people in large organizations can be while they pursue their particular organizational incentives. The slide of the proposed Lunar exploration schedule is Exhibit A.

Fascinating blog article. Thank you for posting that, I also went back and read his original and his thoughts on Starship and Starlink directly.

And then I turned and just had a 20 minute conversation with my wife about these things. It’s hard to sit where we are today and think about the effects that these things will have. It’s harder still to look at Musk with any kind of negative connotation but not think about these changes he is championing for mankind: an electric vehicle revolution, internet communication for the globe, cheap mass space transit. These are things that will affect MANKIND for the next 100 years or more. I’m not trying to put them on a pedestal I’m just dumbfounded with the success as it’s happening. We’re about to see a heck of a lot of change and at a faster pace than most of us old folks posting here have ever seen. Here’s hoping mankind is ready for it.

I think what is fascinating is the contrasts in the space industry. I think by any measure NASA , and their lead contractors in the 60s and early 70s was a high-functioning organization. Going from not being to being able to put a satellite into orbit, to landing a man on the moon, in under a decade is a mind-blowing achievement. Especially, while having less computing power than an Apple II.

I got a glimpse into the cultural changes at NASA, when I worked at Intel. In the mid 80, A older colleague surprised me by saying he was really underwhelmed by working at Intel and other Silicon Valley companies. “Really, you don’t think changing the computer industry and how people work isn’t very important??”, I asked It turns he had worked on the last 3 or 4 Apollo missions, at NASA and the excitement and esprit-de-corp jaded him to everything else. A decade later, we hired another NASA engineer a bit younger than myself, and for him working Intel was liberating, the lack of bureaucracy and the pace. Intel hadn’t changed, that happened after Andy Grove stepped down, but NASA clearly had.

Watching the excited reaction of young SpaceX engineers as they reach a new achievement, it’s very reminiscent of scenes in Houston mission control from the 60s. There are a lot more women and a wider variety of clothes, but the same emotion. I finally understood why my older colleague was so jaded, I’m quite envious of the folks who work at SpaceX. They are Apollo 2.0

JPL still does great work, but it takes a different type of person who can work on a project for a decade before finding out if works or not.
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That’s a fascinating anecdote. I wonder if you could pinpoint the sequence of decisions made that resulted in the change of attitude at NASA between the two eras.

I’m really not sure. I suspect much of it was because the younger guy worked at the NASA Ames facility in and was focused on Aeronautics, wind tunnels and such, and the older guy worked at Houston. I’m sure there is lot more prestige working on Space especially manned space, than aeronautics at NASA. But we’ve all heard how NASA has become very risk adverse have the Challenger and Discovery blew it.

Also, it may not be because Boeing, or NASA are particularly dysfunctional organizations, for all I know they may be no worse than your typical big organization, it is just the contrast.

Imagine being the poor engineers, who’ve struggled to get Falcon reliably up to orbit the last year. Elon drops this bombshell and some crazy timeline like next year. They never landed anything bigger than the Grasshopper rocket from altititude of 1,000 meters. I’m sure there was some discussion afterwords, where people said, “he meant launch a rocket not land right?”, and WTF drugs has he been taking. Then Gwyn talks them through the process of how they will do the impossible.

After a while the organization starts believing, that building a self-sustain colony on Mars, isn’t bat-shit crazy.

Well the ideas have to start. I mean the older I get the more i realize that a thousand years from now things will be crazy different. InterPLANETARY space will obviously be developed.

Though InterSTELLAR space will never be developed unless we figure out how.

Good article Strol. Wish we had some more life times to see what will happen.

I think what SpaceX has done is amazing and has and will continue to upend the market for launch services and lower the barrier for entry to space. I have tempered enthusiasm for all this other stuff though. Musk isn’t a visionary: he’s just a smart guy with lots of money. Landing a rocket on a boat wasn’t a genius out-of-the-blue idea. In fact, Blue Origin filed a patent for the idea in 2010, and SpaceX’s filing fighting the patent demonstrated a clear technological history of the idea since the 1970’s, culminating in a Japanese paper from 1998 with this diagram in it:

image

What happened in the 201x’s was that the technology for control systems and 3D printing and electronics had evolved enough to make the idea work. AND you had a guy with deep pockets and a lot of venture capital buddies willing to take a risk to develop it. AND you had a gap in NASA’s capability which led to the commercial crew development program and an opportunity for fledging companies to secure funding for development.

We’ll see what happens with Starship over the next year. Returning from orbit is hard and SpaceX’s flight profile for the descent is novel, but I suspect they’ll eventually be successful. Which means they’ll have this huge launch capability that no one is asking for and will have to go looking for customers. Space based refueling has never been demonstrated and even if it had, there’s just no commercial demand for space missions beyond GEO. JPL might be very happy to be less mass constrained when designing robots, but we launch maybe 1 or 2 exploration missions per year and I’m not sure that rate will sustain SpaceX’s interest in this platform. I’m very skeptical that Starship will cost <$10m per launch. Falcon Heavy launches run about 10x that now and are cheaper but only 30% or so cheaper than comparable ULA launches.

There were clear customers for F9, FH, Dragon and Crew Dragon development. SpaceX had contracts, funding, and commitments from NASA in place. I don’t think the same is true of Starship, even if it’s successful. It’s hard to see the point of a lunar base. And Mars is an utter chimera. We’re not going to put a million people on Mars ever.

Not to get all P&R on this topic, but I think NASA got co-opted into the military industrial complex. High level decisions on what they were going to do and how and which contractors they would use started to get made a political levels with a lot of disregard for input from engineers. Once the contractors realized that cozying up (via $$$) to the right politicians was more important than engineer excellence when it came to winning NASA contracts the decline began in earnest.

Let’s not give SpaceX tooooooo much credit here. They aren’t beating out the establishment players by coming up with engineering ideas light years ahead of everyone else. They are beating them out with execution, by being a private company that can stay focused on delivering well engineered solutions quickly and in a cost-effective fashion.