What's With Europe?

These are all good (if slanted) observations. The one thing you don’t touch on, which does concern me, is the question of popular support for the American position. Based on our arguments and in light of recent polls there is no popular support even in Britain for an invasion of Iraq outside the auspices of the U.N… Indeed, it’s very likely that even ‘friendly’ governments and others who’ve been coerced (as, notably, we’re pretty generous with checkbook diplomacy these days - take a look at how much cash we’re providing Eastern Europe let alone Turkey) will be voted out of power as a result of supporting a war their own people have no desire for and, indeed, a great deal of hostility to.

I’ve never been convinced that the U.S. is the black hat here anymore than I’m convinced we’re the white hats eithers. Obviously, some action has to be taken to create a less poisonous environment in the Middle East. Some might say forcefully resolving the Israeli/Palestininan issue by applying real pressure on Israel to work and play well with others is the answer but domestic politics make that awkward. There are even some real nuts that think if we spent the cash we’re about to spend on this largely elective war, the related diplomacy/bribes, and the rebuilding of Iraq on actually developing an alternative energy source to gasoline we could wash our hands of the Middle East entirely. And, ultimately, it’s the oil and shady operations (installing the Shah, supporting the most radical elements in Afghanistan and letting it fall apart afterwards, supporting Iraq in its war with Iran, and so on…) that’s gotten us here. Will more oil and more shady operations with questionable partners bring better results?

I do understand that real action has to be taken and I think the protestors claiming that ‘peace’ is the answer probably have to work a little harder to come up with a solution. I’ve suggested the theory that we’re moving against Iraq in order to get ahold of the oil with the strategic goal of being able to control oil flow and prices - in order to pressure Saudi Arabia into backing off its support of Islamic radicalism (which is where many of our terrorists come from). While I’m skeptical that we’re going to really offer anything like democracy to Iraq, since what we want is a predictable environment not one driven by populist politics (folks will elect anyone - just look out our own White House), I do think we can’t afford to be at the mercy of OPEC and this will get us out of that trap. Taking Iraq also offers a central location to stage other elective military operations all over the region should we feel the need. As a wargamer, since I’m no policy analyst, this strikes me as a very prudent move.

I’m the guest, who forgot to log in, that posted before and pointed out just how badly we’re screwing up unless our goal is to alienate ourselves from the world. It’s pretty clear that, governments aside, no people - nobody - no population, is buying our arguments that this is simply about dictatorship and weapons of mass destruction. That’s because we haven’t made anything resembling a convincing case to anybody that we need to bring a war about to end this somewhat vague threat to folks in the region (who /really/ want us to stay the hell out) or ourselves (who are so freaked out since 9/11 42% of us still think Saddam was behind it and even if he wasn’t - well - let’s blow /something/ up!).

I forget who used the phrase ‘coy’ to describe the administration’s actual Middle East policy as compared to its stated Iraq policy but ‘coy’ only breeds suspicion. Baseline: nobody likes war. Baseline: We’re not France - we’re a very big dog. Big dogs on a leash are tolerable. Big dogs chasing cats around scare folks. Baseline: We do have to play by different rules if we want the world to tolerate us rather than fear us. Baseline: We have the resources and diplomatic skills (somewhere) to make things happen in a way that won’t piss everyone off. Baseline: We elected a saber-rattling big talking idiot and his radical buddies (read some of their papers sometime) with ties to oil and the industrial-defense complex.

So, even if action of some sort is justified (and I can see how a rational case can be made) we’re managing to make a mess of presenting it by virtue of not only the message but who the messengers are.

The bottom line is that we were attacked, Europe wasn’t, and when it comes to the heavy lifting, not everyone is going to be willing to go along no matter how many times Colin Powell comes to your house.

I don’t recall Iraq attacking the United States.

Exactly. This is what I mean about people being willing to say anything to legitimize their opinion. Go read Pollack’s book!

Like, “Go read Pollack’s book”?

Like, “Go read Pollack’s book”?[/quote]

The full quote is, “Go read Pollack’s book you misinformed hawk!”

Like, “Go read Pollack’s book”?[/quote]

The full quote is, “Go read Pollack’s book you misinformed hawk!”[/quote]
Are you talking to me, or to Jason about the thing I didn’t say? These flat forums make me crazy. It’s funny that you bring up Threatening Storm (which I read, thanks!), because Pollack’s scenarios of Saddam-on-the-loose are the kind of things that seem much more credible in the context of 9/11. My point was that it was the US that was attacked (not by Iraq, simply attacked) and I think this is something the Europeans don’t quite understand (at best), or hide behind (at worst - see the smallpox quote). 9/11 radically changed the picture, regardless of specific Baghdad-Al Qaeda ties. Since Europe was not attacked, it doesn’t have the same perspective on this US security issue. I think people in the US are much more willing to entertain scenarios that prior to 9/11 would have seemed a bit fanciful. The European protests against the Pershing II deployment were a similar example. No one in Poland had to be convinced of Russian intentions – we all knew about Katyń Forest, the deportations, and so on. That experience lent perspective. But at the same time, Harold Pinter probably still thinks that was a Nazi war crime.

I haven’t been reading Qt3 for the past several months, except for the odd day here and there, so I apologize if this ground has been covered in other threads. Next time I’ll procrastinate by posting to a soccer website or something. Do you think Wisła can knock off Lazio after that amazing 3-3 first leg in Rome? Here’s hoping! The “Iraq didn’t attack us!” line is a cheap semantic trick, though. What would Gregg Easterbrook say? He’d be ranting about how his minivan is better than those nasty SUVs. Lazio was Mussolini’s favorite team so it’s like the never-ending fight against fascism!

Also Tim, I think you meant to say “justify” rather than “legitimize.” I got the idea, though!

I guess you aren’t very aware of the terrorism that has been occurring in Europe for years. You know that France/Algeria thang? Spain/Basques? Russia/Chechnia? England/IRA? Italy/Red Brigades? Scads of airplane hijackings? Remember when we bombed Libya? That was in retaliation for a nightclub bombing in Germany.

We are the new kids on the block when it comes to domestic terrorism, not Europe.

You know what’s missing in all these threads? Brian Koontz’s opinion. C’mon Brian, what does a truly logical person think?

I guess you aren’t very aware of the terrorism that has been occurring in Europe for years. You know that France/Algeria thang? Spain/Basques? Russia/Chechnia? England/IRA? Italy/Red Brigades? Scads of airplane hijackings? Remember when we bombed Libya? That was in retaliation for a nightclub bombing in Germany.

We are the new kids on the block when it comes to domestic terrorism, not Europe.[/quote]
You forgot to mention Italy/Red Brigades and Germany/Baader-Meinhof! As I said, and you quoted directly - “…this US security issue.” That means these specific circumstances. I guess you aren’t very aware of the 1983 bombing because you didn’t mention it. Was there any terrorist activity in the US in the 1960s-70s? You must not be aware of it, because it is not in your post.

I guess you aren’t very aware of the terrorism that has been occurring in Europe for years. You know that France/Algeria thang? Spain/Basques? Russia/Chechnia? England/IRA? Italy/Red Brigades? Scads of airplane hijackings? Remember when we bombed Libya? That was in retaliation for a nightclub bombing in Germany.

We are the new kids on the block when it comes to domestic terrorism, not Europe.[/quote]
You forgot to mention Italy/Red Brigades and Germany/Baader-Meinhof! As I said, and you quoted directly - “…this US security issue.” That means these specific circumstances. I guess you aren’t very aware of the 1983 bombing because you didn’t mention it. Was there any terrorist activity in the US in the 1960s-70s? You must not be aware of it, because it is not in your post.[/quote]

I meant to say, the 1983 Beirut bombing. Although maybe I was not aware of it since it was not in my post. What is invalid_session? That is the reason for the non-post above. I blame Chet.

Clearly!

And I think this administration is taking full advantage of the post 9/11 milieu to legitimize the war with Iraq. I can’t count the number of times I have heard people make the most ridiculous arguments. “A strike on Iraq is a blow to al-Quiada!” “Saddam and Osama are in league!” I see no evidence of these things.

You raise some good points about the motivations in Europe. I bet you are right. Nevertheless you have to admit that this administration has not articulated a compelling case for this war. You know it hasn’t when most of the pro-war argument amount to comparisons between Saddam and Hitler, or vague innuendo that Saddam is working al-Quiada. The best argument for war is that Iraq is in breach of their commitment to disarm, but that alone does not seem dramatic enough to justify another war; I believe this is why we get all the others.

You are getting the invalid_session thing too? You are correct: it is all Chet’s fault. Read the thread “Why can’t I post” to find out more.

Maybe we should all agree not to keep bringing up the opposition’s most asinine, poorly informed arguments and stick the the real meat of each argument. I agree that there’s no substantive link between the two entities (I can’t spell when it’s this late). I think it’s basically a shared hatred for Jews and America that has led to Al Queda members (agents? operatives?) being allowed some lattitude or unhindered movement within Iraq’s borders in the past. Of course that assumes Iraq knew about and could have prevented such a thing. That might be a little different now that the latest Bin Laden tape has called for a popular revolution to overthrow Saddam.

But that isn’t to say 9/11 isn’t a huge influence in our current attitude towards Iraq. And the lack of that Al Queda link doesn’t invalidate the attitude. 9/11 demostrate how letting things go to hell on the other side of the world can and will come back to bite us in the ass. How helpful was it to have the free run of a place like Afghanistan for a terrorist organization? The situation in Iraq isn’t the same as it was there, but it forces us to think globally. How can allowing Saddam to do whatever he wants for the next couple decades hurt us? Worst case scenario he tanks the world economy while getting the Middle East turned into one impressive piece of glass and causing a catostrophic ecological disaster. Best case scenario he is responcible for another 20 years of brutal oppression. And of course there’s lots of room between those two outcomes, so use your imagination. I’m seeing a lot of up side here, to his removal by force. And that’s even before you consider things like the opprotunity to demonstrate the force behind a UN resolution. The world should see consequences for the kind of defiance of international law Saddam has shown over the last 12 years. It would also be a great opprotunity to create a democratic Arab state as an example to the region. It would also be great way to start getting out of Saudi Arabia and start putting pressure on them to shape up.

No single thing is likely to be “dramatic” enough for you. You have to look and the overall situation, you can’t cut things up to see if one piece scares you enough. The fact that he won’t disarm, compounded by what a vicious fellow he can be, complicated further by his own egotism and when you consider the possibility of a nuclear doomsday with him, and when you think about how great Iraq could be without him, I think that’s a pretty compelling whole. Of course those aren’t the “other” you talk about getting. But you picked out the stupidest ones you could fiind.

As a hawk I think my main frustration with most doves is the failure of many to bring anything to the table. Many will just tell you that the argument for isn’t good enough. That Bush doesn’t articulate it well enough. Of course Bush doesn’t, he’s not an articulate reason. That does’nt mean a substantive, well articulated argument isn’t out there. So if anyone wants to argue with me try to stay on point. Don’t equate my argument with something stupid you heard elsewhere. Don’t tell how stupid Bush is at this convincing stuff and I won’t throw idiotic protester stories in you face either. I’m trying to bring this debate back to the civility I mentioned before. The ongoing Iraq debate here is seriously the most thoughtful and intelligent I’ve participated in or even seen anywhere. Crossfire ain’t got nothing on us. Hell, we even flipped McCullough a while back.

Oh, and all you “Guests”, could you like do a search on the word “Iraq” and pretend like you’re up to date on all that’s been said before? If not, I probably don’t even want to hear it. I’m going to get some sleep now…

Maybe we should all agree not to keep bringing up the opposition’s most asinine, poorly informed arguments and stick the the real meat of each argument. I agree that there’s no substantive link between the two entities (I can’t spell when it’s this late). I think it’s basically a shared hatred for Jews and America that has led to Al Queda members (agents? operatives?) being allowed some lattitude or unhindered movement within Iraq’s borders in the past. Of course that assumes Iraq knew about and could have prevented such a thing. That might be a little different now that the latest Bin Laden tape has called for a popular revolution to overthrow Saddam.

But that isn’t to say 9/11 isn’t a huge influence in our current attitude towards Iraq. And the lack of that Al Queda link doesn’t invalidate the attitude. 9/11 demostrate how letting things go to hell on the other side of the world can and will come back to bite us in the ass. How helpful was it to have the free run of a place like Afghanistan for a terrorist organization? The situation in Iraq isn’t the same as it was there, but it forces us to think globally. How can allowing Saddam to do whatever he wants for the next couple decades hurt us? Worst case scenario he tanks the world economy while getting the Middle East turned into one impressive piece of glass and causing a catostrophic ecological disaster. Best case scenario he is responcible for another 20 years of brutal oppression. And of course there’s lots of room between those two outcomes, so use your imagination. I’m seeing a lot of up side here, to his removal by force. And that’s even before you consider things like the opprotunity to demonstrate the force behind a UN resolution. The world should see consequences for the kind of defiance of international law Saddam has shown over the last 12 years. It would also be a great opprotunity to create a democratic Arab state as an example to the region. It would also be great way to start getting out of Saudi Arabia and start putting pressure on them to shape up.[/quote]

In a perfect world, I’d say these are strong points. If I were laying counters out on a map and planning strategy in a pristine game engine that didn’t bother with niceties like world opinion, America’s role in this new world order, and the implications on international relations of a first strike policy, I’d say that we should go for it. Saddam is an asshole. He does kill a helluva lot of innocent people. He likely has some stocks of chemical and biological weapons. There is a possibility of, far from proven, nebulous contacts between his regime and Al Qaeda. Knocking him over, as I’ve noted, would provide the handle on OPEC we need to give Saudi Arabia a nice wedgie - which is very well deserved. Evidently there was a story out recently about a US-Israeli strategy paper produced in 1996 in which many future members of this administration participated which described a ‘domino’ effect of democracy starting with knocking off Hussein and destabilizing a number of neighboring dictatorships (including Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia) which would provide excuses for us to go in and install friendlier, and democratic, regimes. On paper, I like this - honest and accountable Arab governments would go a long way to defusing the hostility in the region.

All that said, I’m not sure it’s at all wise for us to go forward if that means alienating the world or fighting under a false flag. How can we claim to be enforcers of U.N. resolutions if the U.N. itself seems skeptical of, even hostile to, the measures we’re proposing? To most eyes it seems the U.S. is hellbent on war and is just using WMD and the post Gulf War agreements as casus belli to pursue a war many of the administration’s most prominent foreign policy thinkers have been pursuing since long before 9/11. If we can pursue a first strike policy, remember Iraq has not attacked this country, why can’t other countries argue for a first strike policy against pet enemies of their own? We’ve already given the quiet nods to China and Russia who have their own internal ‘muslim’ problems though many describe these minorities as oppressed or freedom fighters. What about India and Pakistan? China and Taiwan? What will a first strike norm do to international order? What about an international order whose polity is increasingly anxious about or even hostile to a Bushite America based on our self-aggrandizing and overreaching in world affairs?

And if it were just Iraq that would still be hairy enough - we’re now getting hands on in a guerrilla war in Columbia that’s far from black and white on behalf of oil. We’ve just sent a couple thousand troops to fight in the jungles of the Phillipines which is evidently against their own constitution. And there’s North Korea which is convinced, I’m not sure they’re wrong, we’re coming after them when we’re done with Iraq which gives them precious little to lose by menacing and, possibly, proliferating or even declaring war while we’re bogged down.

Is this going to make the world a safer place - really? Or are we sowing, to a startling degree, the seeds of the next generation of terrorists by handling our affairs in such a heavy handed manner? Are we offering succor to dictators and proliferators by making alliances of convenience with one set of distasteful regimes to destroy another? Are we destabilizing the world community, or what there is of one, by displaying such open disdain for world opinion and flouting the institutions we claim to be acting on behalf of?

It’s not an insubstantial thing that while there may be good tactical, even strategic, reasons for pursing these goals we can really do far more damage than good if we do them the wrong way. It’s not ridiculous to point out Bush is an idiot if that is a factor in why the policies we seem to be pursing are falling on the sword of his misbegotten attempts, or lack thereof, at international relations.

See the above. I like the discussion here myself. Sorry if I’m butting in on this coversation but these issues are ones I’m honestly still working out for myself and talking to bright folks helps me sort out the wheat from the chaff in my thinking.

I know it is, but so is “we were attacked, Europe wasn’t” to justify a pre-emptive invasion of Iraq, who didn’t attack us. Mind you, I’m tenously in favor of the whole thing at this point, but it’s annoying; I have no idea how 9/11 “changed everything” when it comes to secular dictators. Just because we illogically used to think it would never happen doesn’t mean we should now illogically think things that have no chance of happening will (Saddam giving WMD to terrorists, I believe is the assumption).

But that isn’t to say 9/11 isn’t a huge influence in our current attitude towards Iraq. And the lack of that Al Queda link doesn’t invalidate the attitude. 9/11 demostrate how letting things go to hell on the other side of the world can and will come back to bite us in the ass. How helpful was it to have the free run of a place like Afghanistan for a terrorist organization? The situation in Iraq isn’t the same as it was there, but it forces us to think globally. How can allowing Saddam to do whatever he wants for the next couple decades hurt us?

It shouldn’t be an influence in our thinking about Iraq. Saddam still isn’t going to give WMD to terrorists that attack the US; he may be a bad risk taker, but he’s not brain-damaged. 9/11 rightly changed our views of the dangers of failed states (Somalia and Afghanistan), but I don’t see how it changed anything when it comes to the tinpot dictator, in general.

I think conservatives like to conflate terrorism & Saddam because it gives support to the extremely weak arguments against Saddam they ideologically prefer (He’ll launch a nuke at us! He’ll give smallpox to Al-Qeuda). It’s a dangerous line of thinking, as it doesn’t take too active an imagination to come up with icky little scenarios for elsewhere in the world using this reasoning. (Indonesia? The Phillipines? Central America, fucking again?)

“Saddam will inevitably get nukes, and Saddam with nukes will fuck up the entire region” is the honest argument to make. It’s a shame this Administration isn’t interested in using it.

Hell, we even flipped McCullough a while back.

Actually, it was 100% Pollack and Marshall. :D

Today’s Washington Post - Front Page: “Bush Faces Increasingly Poor Image Overseas: Many People Think President Greater Threat To Peace Than Hussein.” That’s the header on the website - here’s the link. It may require a free application.