I’m fascinated by the Naval and Aerial aspects of World War One and Two. I am seriously into the aviation of the time. The strategies of the period also intetrests me.
Other than that I’m not interested in modern warfare other than the joy it brought me in the early 90’s in games alike M1 Tank Platoon and other sims.
Add me to the list, I’m personally a wimp, I demonstrated in the streets against the Iraq war and come from a country that is still a tiny bit wary of its own military, yet I have like 50 tank related Osprey books among many others, and love military history from every period, wargaming and combat simulators.
And also the WWII Germany thing Lum mentioned… they are the most despicable piece of shit villains of the history of Mankind. But they sure knew how to dress for the occasion.
I found an interesting parallel in gaming forums with people who seemed to be fascinated by German WW II technology/symbolism and be Republicans. But make absolutely no mistake, they’ll punch you in the nose if you happen to make the connection out loud!
There was the same thing in the SWG forums where alot of folks took the political dimension of Star Wars waaaay out of whack, at least from everything Lucas displayed to us, and came off as genuine apologists for The Empire as a strong patriotic government just defending itself and vehement condemners of The Rebellion as terrorists. I mean, I’m into wargaming and roleplaying and all that - I’m not making fun of the geeks - but it was very disturbing to see how agile people can be reshaping facts about a fictional setting to suit their own perspective on real life.
My favorites were those who’d insist Lucas was biased and a propagandist for the Rebel point of view. Wow. Man. Yikes. And yes, I’ve already seen the National Review editorial that praised The Empire but I’d swear to god none of these guys had. Not big readers from the looks of it. And some of them had monikers that were derived from WWII German weaponry or military terms. I’m pretty certain they weren’t consciously setting themselves up to look like they were, these weren’t racist or blatantly pro-Nazi rants. In fact, I’d bet they’d punch you in the nose too if you made the connection out loud. But it was right there between the lines for all to see.
I think this is revelant to the extent some people detach themselves and their opinions from the larger flow of reality. They compartmentalize and don’t even see the overarching linkages, and contradictions, in their own statements and convictions.
In most cases it’s certainly harmless and possibly even beneficial. How could we understand warfare and its implications if we didn’t study it, even as armchair generals or hobbyists? If we really let it sink in, the meaning of what we were reading or playing at, then we’d probably just walk away entirely and nobody would be better off for that.
Of course, I’m a guy who loves wargames and reads histories. The conflicts and, indeed, personal dramas of war are compelling stuff. The technologies and tactics employed are fascinating displays of ingenuity and often daring. The most overused literary device in the world is “in walks a man with a gun” when a scene gets slow. How does one not find it fascinating when entire societies walk in with guns?
But as others have pointed out the reality of war is such that if you know what you’re talking about, or even have an inkling, it’s not something you’re going to be in a rush to get involved with yourself or put anyone else into. Unless you’re wired in some very special ways, good or bad.
Brian, how can you love Star Wars when it glorifies the genocide of an entire planet?
You’re a hypocrite and if I ever see you I’ll punch you in the nose.
laugh You joke but I’m not kidding. There was a real pattern there. I think it has to be more psychological then ideological myself. Dominating power, order, entire nations marching in unison, the height of military technology, prowess and supremecy. I think belonging to that even vicariously through history books or fiction is profoundly attractive to some people even if they do recognise these kinds of entities have done terrible things and probably would again. So they gravitate to the trappings while condemning the historical precidents.
Does it matter? I don’t know. Maybe not.
Robert,
If someone was pointing a gun at you and you had one too, would you not be willing to pull the trigger to defend yourself? That’s not a weakness, it’s self preservation, a gut instinct that most of us have inside of ourselves. There’s a difference between doing what you have to do and murdering someone for the hell of it. I’m not willing to go kill someone for sport either, there needs to be a damn good reason. I guess we’re agreeing but disagreeing.
I’ve a few friends that have been in either the first or second Iraq war. One of them took pictures. War isn’t pretty and the images are disturbing. That being said, I wouldn’t kill someone just because I could but if you point a gun in my face I’m all about blowing you away.
There’s a difference between up close and personal killing vs long distance like a sniper. A sniper looks at the target as a challenge to hit and there’s no real personal contact. It’s one shot and it’s over, next target. Nothing personal, you’re shooting at my men so I’m taking you out, goodbye. Ground troops, on the other hand, must have a far rougher time because sometimes it is up close and personal. Whomever is the fastest\better warrior wins usually in a one on one situation.
How do you train a person to kill someone else? Very easy, as soon as they see the first person on their “Side” get shot or dead, they usually get over it. If they don’t, they get dead themselves. It’s instinct to want to protect oneself and since we’ve climbed to the top of the food chain I’d have to think we’re really good at it.
Bill: Thanks for the visual, I’m not going to be able to sleep for a week now… Yech.
I like the Military Channel, tanks, WII German aircraft, war history (particularly WWII & Napoleonic), watching things blow up, etc. Probably because my dad was always into that kind of stuff – the house was full of military history books, we always watched Victory At Sea, Danger UXB etc. on TV together, and we went to a lot of museums. I’m otherwise pretty peaceful, although I will totally kill bugs and spiders if they invade my personal space.
Oddly enough, I don’t like military-themed games and find them boring.
I mentioned this recently on boardgamegeek.com (tying gamers who like to play the Germans with conservatives who secretly dream about how great it would have been to live in Nazi Germany without, you know, all that Jew killing and bad stuff).
As you mentioned, it didn’t go over so well.
(-7, Obvious Troll)
I personally am fascinated by the USSR’s history and propaganda, I guess that makes me a Democrat.
I’m also really into the history of the Byzantine Empire. I’m not sure what that makes me. I guess Greek Orthodox.
Sorry, that’s not what I meant. I actually do agree with your point that there are times when killing someone is appropriate. What I meant was that you made it sound (perhaps unintentionally) as if those who don’t want to go to war are cowards, and that’s all it could be. Fear isn’t the only reason that people don’t kill other people. That’s all I mean. In fact, some people won’t kill even in self-defence, but that doesn’t necessarily make them cowards.
Better question: Who here likes war? I mean really likes war?
Personally, I’m not morally opposed to war. There are people in this world that are the equivalent of the schoolyard bully grown up and with guns who need to be taken down. And while I’m all for diplomacy first, if that fails, then war it is.
But I can’t imagine anyone who has actually been in a war zone would say they like war.
The problem is, the definition of who is the “schoolyard bully” tends to differ from culture to culture. In some cases, those who would dare to force blue jeans and women’s liberation are the schoolyard bullies who need to die. In others, it is those who have decided against the glorious people’s revolution.
Eww holy fuck gross!
My most awful one was almost walking into the web of a GIGANTIC banana spider. I was walking my dog and shes happily running, then she shies away and I stop, and then I look straight ahead, and there is this spider as big as my hand not two inches from my face.
It was horrific, I was gibbering with fear.
Another element of the fascination is probably the fact that military conflict defines history more than just about anything else. Wars change borders, politics, lives, societies, and everything else they touch in one way or another, and major conflicts are always the signposts used in marking the path of the past. I think part of the fascination with military history and hardware is the acknowledgement that those who hold those instruments hold the power to shape the future in a very real sense. It’s power not just of the “whoa that building totally blew up” variety, but of an even more lasting one as well.
It might have to do more with gun-culture’s relationship with wargaming/military history grognards and the NRA being Republican? I dunno. But there’s a clear correlation I’ve seen in the past, I’m not kidding. I’m not saying all Republicans are secret nazis or that all gamers/wargamers who find German technology interesting are Republicans. But by and large, there’s a certain mentality there amongst some of these folks.
Look, I’m not the only one who’s noticed it.
Yes, closeted Nazis are right wingers. That doesn’t mean everyone who voted Republican has SS uniforms in their closet just waiting to, you know, come out of the closet. It also doesn’t mean all wargamers are Nazis. It doesn’t even mean all wargamers who choose “Germany” when playing WW2 games are Nazis. Just the (thankfully tiny) minority fascinated by Nazi porn.
Incidentally the vast majority of video game developers are left-wing Democrats (or Greens). I’m not sure what this says about GTA4. Or Democrats.
BTW just to re-threadjack, I’m constantly going on about history (military or otherwise) and I personally have been horrified by violence whenever I have been unfortunate enough to encounter it, and think war is the last refuge of scoundrels and evil-doers. Despite having a large collection of SPI wargames set in the Fulda Gap, I thank whatever higher power is listening whenever the subject comes up that we never actually fought that war, because I WOULD BE DEAD AND SO WOULD MOST OF YOU.
It’s been said that war is just politics by other means. However you need to remember that those that advocate real war are actually advocating hell on earth. Indiscriminate murder and mental scars and vendettas which can only propagate more violence.
We can simulate war and sate our baser instincts. There is no need to kill actual people unless a very high bar is met. Beware of those trying to lower the bar.
“It is well that war is so terrible, or we should get too fond of it.”
War is glorious. It is the blending of technology, skill, cunning, artifice, everything!
War is terrible. It is death and horror.
Why is it so many people like murder mysteries when murder is bad?
I didn’t intend it to sound that way, that’s Flowers job around here. ;)
No, I think that it takes a pretty strong person emotionally to be thrown into a situation like war and actually walk away from the experience sane. If a person doesn’t think they can take it or up to it they shouldn’t serve. What I don’t get are the people that joined the service, have received the great benefits and then don’t want to go on active duty when it’s their time. That’s a hell of a time to start bringing up Objector status. Somewhat hypocritical IMO.
Can a person actually really enjoy war? A sane person? I’m thinking not, then again there are those rare few that just might. In any case, I still like to see things go boom so I like the toys that we have developed. The thought of just what might happen if one was used a live person doesn’t float my boat but watching a building explode is really cool.