Why is the RTS genre dead?

It’s also really hard to measure what impact a good AI has on a game’s overall quality. Measuring graphics isn’t exactly objective either, but it’s much easier for the layman to look at something and definitively say “yep, that looks better.” That’s almost always enough evidence to prove time spent on graphics > time spent on AI. Put another way, it’s much harder to tell when a developer has cut corners with AI than it is with graphics. Ultimately, sales are what drive most decisions in business, and games are no different in that regard. Very rare is the game where “good AI” is actually worth a bullet point.

Jon

RTSs are not dead. They are evolving. At least that’s what I read in a column on Crispy Gamer called Rush Boom Turtle by some pinheaded RTS nerd.

-Tom

Threads like these are pretty silly and sometimes infuriating. The entire premise is flawed to begin with, even though you counter your basic premise directly in the OP.

2009 had a ton of awesome RTS games come out. 2010 is has a lot of promising RTSs coming out. So you suddenly, randomly, baslessly assume that beyond 2010, there won’t be any more RTSs coming out? Why are we suddenly assuming without any sort of basis in reality that every developer is now Blizzard announcing games years and years head of time?

The genre has never been some phenomenally blockbuster genre, especially not for the last decade, and the last year or two have been far stronger than those before it. Here are some more strategy games of 2010.

LIST OUTDATED! SHOWS DIABLO 3 in 2010!

Quite a nice little list there, actually. Some interesting titles I hadn’t yet heard of.

Personally though, I think that’s about right. Just look at the FPS of today against the FPS of yester-year, there will be stats or it will be open world. I’m not surprised RTSs are changing too.

Yeah, I’m not suggesting that web site to be 100% accurate or even full of games that look to all be high-quality, but it is pretty comprehensive and a quick tool to remind you of some more obscure titles you might have forgotten about.

Either way, 2010 looks to be just as promising as 2009, if not moreso, and 2009 was one of the best years for RTS games in a very long time.

So can we old TBS folks cheer the return of our genre, the one RTS pretty much destroyed?

Yea, I figured not.

I am with you. Let’s start a groundswell right here and now.

Might even call it trolling.
Except that the evolution that pinhead was referring to hasn’t exactly found dry land yet. At times it seems somewhat directionless in upcoming games (RUSE?) and still has barely addressed the multiplayer friendly issues.

It’s not trolling at all. Warning started the thread based on an Age of Empires III discussion. It’s a question many people wonder. Particularly casual RTS players who no longer see where the genre is heading because it’s not a lot of stuff with big marketing budgets.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at by extending the metaphor, so I have no idea how to respond when you say it “hasn’t found dry land yet”. You’re going to use RUSE as an example? That’s rich. That’s like me saying RPGs are dead because Divinity II might not be any good.

But if you want to continue the evolution metaphor, I’d say there’s plenty of “ground occupied” in the form of tower defense games, which is easily an offshoot of RTSs. Even if you want to poo-poo the idea of tower defense games as RTSs, you can see the connection expressed in hardcore RTSs like Demigod, Battle for Newerth, and League of Legends, none of which needs to sell Age of Empire numbers to be successful.

In terms of successful evolutions, I’d also point to immensely creative developments like Darwinia/Multiwinia (headed for Xbox Live as an XBLA incaration of Multiwinia) and EndWar (a sequel is in development), as well as EA’s brash attempt to cash in on the MMO model with C&C4. Oh, and Brutal Legend, which is an immensely clever shout-out to Herzog Zwei, the first evar RTS!

Creatively speaking, Relic is doing great work with Dawn of War 2. The Nintnedo Wii has a great RTS called Swords & Soldiers that’s uniquely suited for console systems. Eufloria, AI War, and Age of Booty all draw from unique inspirations in unique ways. We sure didn’t see cool stuff like that back when everyone was just making C&C clones.

Commercially speaking, there’s a whole arm of former Ensemble folks continuing to do work on Halo Wars. Square/Enix is putting plenty of muscle behind Supreme Commander 2. Of course, Starcraft II is going to make the “RTSs are d0med” crowd look silly whenever it gets around to being released.

Anyway, none of this stuff I’m saying is new. I’ve written about it in my column and anyone who keeps up with the genre knows better than to buy into “RTS are d0med!” talk. The genre isn’t flush with cheap clones and bland grabs at a piece of pie anymore. I’d say that’s not d0med at all. On the contrary, it’s a good thing for those of us who like to play smart, innovative, well-made RTSs.

-Tom

As someone who’s never liked RTSes, I keep hoping that the console transition will produce games that are more to my tastes (as happened with FPSes – I can’t stand traditional PC-based ones, but have a lot of fun with console ones). Which reminds me yet again that EndWar is still sitting in my TBP pile…

Mr. Zlows, not to steer you away from trying EndWar, but did you play Demigod? It’s not on consoles, but it’s a lovely example of an RTS that would absolutely work as a console game. It also solves what I think a lot of people don’t like about RTSs (demanding micro, mandatory multitasking, having to know lots of unit stats).

 -Tom

Truthfully if I’d thought it through more thoroughly I’d have went with “Why do people think the RTS genre is dead?” I thought Enidigm’s and Luke M’s statements were provocative (as in thought-provoking) and I thought any discussion might be lost in the Age of Empires III thread.

The RTS genre is dead. Now, not dead Rome Empire dead sense, but in the sense that Flight Sims are dead. Sure, a few will always be made, but the genre’s hayday has past, and the gaming industry and public has passed it by, and it will no longer meaningfully contribute to the game industry. Or, not in the traditional sense anyway - what will remain will less and less be a recognizable RTS game than ever before.

I’d like to go on to write a wall of text, starting with a historic summation about the rise of the RTS genre, the big three developers and their different backgrounds and apparent game design philosophies (Blizzard, Westwood, and Ensemble), and how all three of them eventually died out, which in Blizzard’s case is evolving into a higher form of game developer. How other companies took up the RTS baton but only Relic managed to survive the transition, and only by aligning itself with a popular intellectual property.

But Quake 2 and Starcraft were released at about the same time. Think about that, if you don’t understand why RTS games are dead. The most popular RTS game of all time, still selling well on the top 20 charts, vs. one of the grandfather FPS games, a game that probably hasn’t been seen in a store in over half a decade or more. When you see that massive cinematic games like Modern Warfare 2 are the descendants of the Doom and Quake, and Starcraft is the descendant of… itself, you see the problem. Is the problem that Starcraft is that good, or that the RTS genre can’t go anywhere else with the RTS concept?

Because, imo, that’s the RTS genre’s ultimate, and fatal, problem. RTS is about grabbing a bunch of guys and moving them and playing army man. RTS is about strategy. This is not a natural marriage. This is the mythical Russian Troika being pulled by a swan, horse, and fish.

I’ve though about this hard, and i believe that it’s a problem that is not resolvable. Think about Starcraft and let me give an example. I want to load a Dropship with a strike force, and hit my opponent’s expansion at the exact moment his main force hits my defenses. This is a sound and interesting strategy. But actually doing the strategy in an RTS game requires a nightmare of hotkey mashing, switching screens between two active fronts, and desperately trying to keep up with microing a massive battle. No developer has ever solved this dilemma. They’ve tried and evolved and invented all sorts of ways around it, but it’s still there, and is inherent to the genre itself.

And while FPS games can go cinematic, and stop being about the rules of the game, and become about the experience of the game, RTS games are much more artificial and the rules much more prominent in the experience. And that combination of control vs. strategy has just never ever evolved past Starcraft. Starcraft “solved” the RTS genre. Like watching the sport of boxing teeter on in dotage while all the money and fame goes to the hot, fresh new UFC, Starcraft is a graying champ, undefeated and unbowed, but with the audience shrinking year by year.

The move to consoles is also a big factor (and you can thank Microsoft and their plan to kill PC gaming, which is also another thread ^^). Cost of AAA games, a factor as well, and one reason why Blizzard made WoW; give them all credit, for not only do they know the games business, they completely pegged the future marketplace direction, for the knew when they saw the Warcraft 3 sales numbers that they had to change direction.

Starcraft 2, as an aside, is a luxury project. In fact i’m not sure if there has ever been in the history of gaming projects quite as unusual as SC2 and Diablo 3. It’s more philanthropy than game design, the rich man giving back to the community from where his industrial empire began. There is no rational or financial reason or incentive to make these games compared to making another MMO.

Enidigm, 2009 has called and wants to know if you’re going to be joining us. :)

Except for the dozen or so developers that actually have solved this dilemma, you mean. But you’re tangled up in semantics, because I’m not sure how you distinguish between “solving a dilemma” and “evolving and inventing ways around it”.

RTS is about grabbing a bunch of guys and moving them and playing army man.

Okay, I found your problem. Looks like you got a bit of outdated traditional narrow-mindedness gumming up your observations. Might I suggest a little Brutal Legends to clear it up?

-Tom

Ah, but if they solved it, why did the traditional RTS game die out (a point which i think is inarguable, compared to it’s popularity 10 years ago), and why did the Big Three developers disappear? I’d argue that when they solved one thing, like unit control, they reduced another, like strategy.

A good example is Supreme Commander. It’s a perfect example. They made a game with far, far more automation than Starcraft could have ever dreamed of, … and many, many more things to do with all that automation. The net result of >complexity + >control is 0. It’s the new king, same as the old king.

BTW i played and liked Brütal Legend. But insofar that it was a significant RTS game, i highly doubt it will be influential or inspiring. The Sacrifice-esque gameplay was much simpler than even a traditional RTS, and unit control was much more difficult from the 1st person perspective. Just grabbing two units out of your stack and sending them to another point was kind of a chore.

You know, there’s this thing called diversification. Making another MMO when you’re at the top is like eating your own babies. Blizzard will get around to releasing another MMO when WoW wanes more and it actually makes financial sense to do so.

ActiBlizzard isn’t making SC2 and D3 as a charity. Unfortunately for your argument, that’s the position you have to take to support your theory. Will they make as much money as WoW? Almost certainly not, but they will make a tidy sum and it’s more rationale than another MMO at this time.

You seem to use the term “dead” like other people would say slowed down or waned. Yes, RTS aren’t at the peak like they were a few years ago. Things wax and wane. But it isn’t binary: you aren’t either at the top or “dead”. There’s middle-ground.

Out of curiosity, who are your Big Three? I presume one of them is Ensemble, a company that was making traditional RTSs that sold very well. Microsoft didn’t close them down because RTSs weren’t popular. The conventional wisdom is that they closed them down because it’s expensive to maintain a development studio.

Now bring on your other two examples of an RTS developer that closed because you think they didn’t cater to the trappings of a traditional RTS.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re arguing. That RTSs that don’t give you direct unit control have less strategy? Because I fail to see how that applies to EndWar, Brutal Legend, Dawn of War, Kohan, etc. As with your initial post, your argument is the sort of thing I’d expect from someone who hasn’t played an RTS in five years.

No one said it would be. My argument was that it’s one of several examples of healthy creative innovation in the genre. There are furthermore examples of commercial success in the genre. Those two things don’t necessarily overlap.

-Tom

My point about the evolution wasn’t that it isn’t happening, it certainly is, but no one seems to have any idea what the end results will be down the road. You can guess what kind of titles will be huge for FPS and RPG, but after Starcraft2, it’s a mystery.

Speaking of evolution, I’m a fan of the platypus games like BattleZone and Kingdom Under Fire and PuzzleQuest.