You forgot Bayonetta , the most awesome video game woman who is never ever a helpless damsel.
The first problem with anyone defending Dennaton’s revision to Hotline
Miami 2 is that there’s a clear difference between depicting something
and condoning it
The first problem with your argument is the misunderstanding that critics are complaining that Hotline Miami 2 is "condoning" rape. The problem is not condoning rape but treating it frivolously in ways that reinforce attitudes in our culture that trivialize rape.
The second problem is your claim that video games are "ready" to handle ugly topics the way films do. You're ignoring the toxic, misogynistic culture of gaming and game developers that differs significantly from the culture of film and filmgoers. When a woman can write critically about games the way women can write about films--that is, without getting deluged with rape threats--I'll believe that games are ready to handle the same kinds of topics as films.
I'd like to add that I do appreciate what Tom is saying, and I hope reading comprehension won't lead to personal attacks regarding what I was trying to achieve. I don't think censorship is going to help with the growth of video games as a whole.
And any idiot who thinks that Tom hates women clearly hasn't seen read his Gone Home review. That's a ridiculous statement.
I guess what I was trying to convey mostly was that the immature nature of gamers, gamers unlike Tom, are why it's so hard to tackle rape. You could bet that Hotline Miami 2 would lead to a billion 'lol rape' memes, which wouldn't happen with a film or a book. That's the problem, and that's why we need to look at things a little differently.
We do need to make it clear that whilst we want games to grow, we don't want to embrace rape-culture. And I think Tom almost did that amicably, but I wanted to speak and clarify my own thoughts on the matter.
So there you go.
And really, I would like for there to be more strong women in games in general, even though we have a few. So whilst I don't agree with Cara in that women are still damsels in distress in games, I do think we could use a few more Jades. Who didn't like Jade in Beyond Good & Evil?
Man, I loved Beyond Good & Evil.
This is the most incredible segue ever. So can we all agree that we love Beyond Good & Evil? Not sure what's going on with this post, any more.
Anyway, I've said what I think, and that's what I genuinely think. I just hope that what I've said is understood.
That's pretty much what I said but in a more confrontational, aggressive way. I understand what you're getting at but the thing is is that in looking at the future of games, how do we deal with this?
I agree that rape-culture is bullshit, and I agree that the 'lol rape' attitudes of far too many gamers would impact this. So how do we deal with that? That's the discussion we need to be having. We need to figure out how we can include rape in games in a way that has gravitas, whilst separating ourselves from misogynists, woman-haters, and idiots alike.
I said in my post that rape in a game is going to invite a whole slew of 'lol rape' memes, because that's what happens with gamers. It doesn't happen with films and books, because those audiences tend to be more emotionally mature.
So we need to think about how to deal with that.
To say that rape shouldn't be in video games is wrong, and to say that video games aren't ready for mature topics is also wrong. Look at Gone Home, and specifically look at what Tom had to say about Gone Home. Gaming is ready, idiots aren't. Unfortunately, gaming has more idiots than books or films.
So that's why it's a sticky situation. I don't want to see gaming neutered simply because of the proliferation of imbeciles that would abuse mature topics.
999 times out of 1000, rape is a lame auctorial excuse for not coming up with a meaningful motivation in any story. Perhaps it motivates revenge or unexpected feminine strength or something stupid like that. Perhaps it simply demonstrates a villain's personal evil. Making a protagonist weak in this way -- either as aggressor or as victim -- is ugly, too. The 1000th time it has legitimate meaning in the story, but this is rare even in serious fiction. In genre fiction it's probably 1 in a million, and in game stories.....
Best just skip it. It will almost inevitably be grotesque.
Yeah, but it's disingenuous to say you can ignore the actual effects of your speech because the idiots who respond that way shouldn't exist. It's like saying, "I should be allowed to shout FIRE! in a crowded theatre. It's not my fault that idiots think there's a real fire and panic."
I'd say it's not OK to put a rape scene in your game in a context where a woman can't criticize your game without getting rape threats from your fans.
Assuming this isn't meant as a parody, that this comment has three upvotes and only one downvote tells you almost everything you need to know about why video games as a medium aren't the appropriate place to depict subjects like rape.
Who is censoring this game, exactly? A critic expressed an opinion about the content. Her opinion possibly gave the developers a reason to more carefully consider the content. I don't see anything about the game being censored. Raising a concern is not censorship.
I find your reasoning very unpersuasive Tom. Dennaton stated in the RPS interview that when he saw Cara's reaction, he realized that her reaction was absolutely not what he intended. It is incredibly easy for an artist to look at a reaction to a piece of work created, and simply scoff at the person and say, that he or she simply "doesn't get it". It takes humility and wisdom to listen to what other people are saying, and consider whether or not you expressed your intended meaning in the best possible manner. If Dennaton shies away from whatever it is he is trying to say, that is one thing, but so far there is zero evidence that that is the case. I rather suspect however we are going to end up with a stronger game due to the thoughtfulness of its creator.
Exactly this. Cactus (and Dennaton) were deliberate in exploring violence in Hotline. Sexual violence has a different place in our culture and they'll either work out an appropriate way to handle the issue, or cut it from the game. After Hotline (and countless cactus games - esp. Norrland), these devs have proven their ability to negotiate difficult subjects. I look forward to seeing the new work.
He forgot a lot of characters, but lists of characters isn't an argument. Otherwise we'd have to list all the characters on the other side. But I agree with Tom there's been progress, because really, there was nowhere to go but up.
I read the report of someone whose writing I know well, who experienced it firsthand. She didn't like it. Dennaton didn't believe in it enough to stick by it. With those facts in mind, I don't think I'm making a completely unfair judgment to say any rape scene has equal potential to be good or bad.
I mean, even just statistically speaking, how many rape scenes are effective and how many aren't? It's not like I'm speaking without any context at all, it's just context about Western media culture as a whole. I've seen (and enjoyed, as much as a sane human can) Martyrs and Inside, so I'm no prude.
Hey Tom, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your willingness to discuss such a touchy subject as rape. The state of video game journalism is a bit murky at the moment. I think things are beginning to change as you've suggested in the comments. I really take umbrage with the opinion that rape should be off limits to games developers. To be fair, rape is an atrocious act and one which should not be worked into a story line lightly: writers have to ensure that they are somehow talking about power structures if a rape is a major plot point (as in Virgin Spring). Anita Sarkeesian's videos on youtube (I find them intriguing and very problematic) have raised a lot of awareness about the state of female characters in gaming and what types of story-lines reinforce some kind of patriarchal arguments. That being said, I like that we are moving past her rather one-sided discussions of gender at a greater speed than she has anticipated. Given that fact, to say that we can't discuss assault through a visual means seems ridiculous. More people are playing video games in 2013 than voting in national elections, watching nightly news and streaming video online. Why can't we use the most popular visual medium (among 18-45 year olds) to discuss an issue that probably most of them have experienced directly, or indirectly?
Cannot disgree more. Yes, I'm all for games with more "adult" themes and such, but there has to be a line somewhere. There is absolutely nothing "gamey" about rape. Don't agree? Let's put you in general population in any major prison for a week or so and then see if you still feel the same way. But why stop there? Why not have child rape or child pornography in games? It's all games right so it's just good clean fun??
Wrong. I say again, some things are just not game material. If any publisher ever actively put a total rape scene in a game, I would lead the charge to boycott every title that company ever came out with again. If you make such a poor choice, expect major consequences.
Don't forget minorities. I hate those, too. And puppies. I especially hate puppies!
Good point about the toxic culture, because I'm 100% with you there. However, I don't believe videogames should limit what they do because of a vocal subset of clueless neanderthals. On a similar note, most videogames aren't ready to take on important subjects like religion, love, ethnicity, family, or homosexuality. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. That doesn't mean the videogames that attempt it should be discouraged. It means we should encourage meaningful attempts to explore difficult subjects. I'm not certain that Hotline Miami 2's rape fake-out is a meaningful attempt, but I applaud how the first game explored violence and madness. If the second game wants to fold in a shocking look at how the player reacts to rape, we shouldn't conflate that encouraging with dickwolf culture, or whatever it's called.
Toxic culture is a subset of the audience that we have to deal with. But the last thing I want is them dictating what we can and can't do.
I never forget Bayonetta. I just sometimes keep her as an ace up the sleeve.
Although, to be fair, I'm not sure Bayonetta is as meaningful a character as those others I listed. She's so wrapped up in Japanese anime power fantasy tropes and raw sexuality without the sort of development that make Ellie or Sam Greenbriar or Elizabeth so memorable.
Yep, as I mentioned above to you and Urthman, it's a good point that I didn't consider. I don't tend to keep up with those circles -- I honestly don't even know what a dick wolf is supposed to be other than a clumsy expression of, I dunno, not wanting to have to acknowledge that rape is a sensitive issue (is that close?) -- so it's not really on the forefront of my mind when I talk about Hotline Miami's weird mindfuck storytelling. What will guys like that do with it? But isn't that like saying Bioware shouldn't acknowledge homosexuality so opening because so many gamers bandy about the words "fag" and "gay"? Shouldn't we try to rise to serious treatment of issues rather than wait for juvenile dipshits to grow up and get a clue?
I don't know the answer, but my instinct is to not let them dictate content.
Aww, you don't like Elizabeth or Triss as examples? I should say that those two characters are specifically included in my list because of either things that happen to them at the end of the game and choices they make. The payoff for them as examples of female characters is only evident in the longer-term.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term "whiteknighting". My understanding is that it means someone championing a cause to curry favor, without fully understanding it or without being able to articulate the issue. If there's some additional connotation, I wasn't aware of it and I didn't intend any offense. Please tell me it's not a racial thing...
It reminds me of the time I accused someone of being butthurt in what I thought was an innocuous reference to being spanked. I was pretty mortified when he told me it implied anal rape. Urk.