Are there any politicians besides Kucinich who have come out as concerned about the treatment of Manning?

Not that I’ve see. Many of the same Democrats who howled their head off at Bush for this shit are silent now.

And what a disgusting message that has become.

Obama on Manning’s treatment: "I’ve actually asked the Pentagon whether or not the procedures…are appropriate. They assured me they are.”

Bush on prisoner treatment: I asked "most senior legal officers in US govt” if we tortured. “They assured me they did not.”

http://twitter.com/#!/WLLegal/status/47010599737114624

In other news, Bradley Manning’s father has spoken out for the first time:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/03/brian-manning/

Screw it. I’m staying home next presidential election, and I’ll be damned if I ever again send money to a presidential candidate.

Manning confinement is about as severe as it can get but it’s not unusual in the Federal prison system. Inmates in supermax are kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day and have no contact with other inmates. Some of Manning’s treatment may be punitive but knowing bureaucracy, it’s probably driven by the nature the alleged crime and the standard guidelines.

That’s a travesty in itself, but it’s worth noting those people are convicted. Manning has only been charged. At least some of Manning’s treatment is demonstrably punitive so there’s no need to slip the “may be” in there.

That last bit is pure propaganda unless you can provide a source that backs it up. All the very well researched info we have from his defence points to it being in no way standard guidelines.

One, are you really that surprised? Two, enjoy the Jeb Bush presidency! Three, the problem here isn’t politicians, it’s the crazy public - 77% disapprove of wikileaks. I can’t find a specific poll on Manning, but I wouldn’t be surprised if half the country thinks he should be executed.

Crowley’s job was being a spokesperson for the state department. That means speaking for the state department, right or wrong. That he got canned for this is not exactly surprising.

And the difference between a Jeb Bush presidency and an Obama presidency would be? So far, every time Obama does something that Bush and Cheney would approve of, or even take it further, you make excuses for him, most of which tends to be “Oh, it would be politically bad for him to actually act on principle and do the right thing.”

I think what Manning did was wrong. I’m in the minority here, I’m sure. But I absolutely am opposed to him being mistreated while in prison.

Andrew Sullivan:

By firing PJ Crowley for the offense of protesting against the sadistic military treatment of Bradley Manning, the president has now put his personal weight behind prisoner abuse. The man who once said that forced nudity was a form of torture, now takes the word of those enforcing it over a distinguished public servant. Money quote:

[QUOTE]A little-known factor in Crowley's comments about Manning was revealed Saturday by April Ryan, a White House correspondent for American Urban Radio who covered Crowley in the Clinton White House. Ryan wrote on Twitter that Crowley "dislikes treatment of prisoners as his father was a Prisoner of War."
While it's true that Crowley's father was imprisoned during World War II, people close him downplay that as a major factor in his comments about Manning, saying the biggest factor is simply that Crowley believes what he said.

Yes. It is not necessary to have had a father as a prisoner of war to see the evil of prisoner abuse, and the stain it places on everyone enforcing it. And in the military, as with Bush, so with Obama. As commander-in-chief, Obama is directly responsible for the inhumane treatment of an American citizen. And Crowley’s firing will make it even less likely in the future that decent public servants will speak out against such needless sadism.[/QUOTE]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/03/obama-owns-the-treatment-of-manning-now.html

Jeb will double the deficit again, move us significantly closer towards a corporate theocracy, invade another Middle Eastern country getting thousands of US soldiers killed, and delay for another 8 years dealing with global warming. As much as Obama pisses me off, at least he’s not batshit insane. Remember the baseline here.

As to what to do about it, there’s only so much room for movement inside the political system; there’s no way you’re going to convince a technocratic, concillatory, mainstream President - this is not a surprise, you knew this was what you’re getting in the primaries - to buck the Washington foreign policy consensus and strong polling opposition by more than a smidgen. From a broader perspective, you’re not going to convince the Democrats to stop playing cowardly lion in foreign policy by politics as usual; you have to move public opinion outside of the traditional Democratic/Republican divide.

We didn’t get the New Deal, the minimum wage, or anti-communist containment strategy by threatening donations and bitching at Democrats for not being liberal enough.

Are you recommending the creation of a liberal tea party? Because the only force in American politics strong enough to create that pressure is unbridled ignorance somehow funneled into a targeted effort, which really doesn’t play up to the strong points of liberal ideas.

The New Deal, anti-communist containment (really? what an unusual choice) etc are typically progressive, in that their ideas generated by an elite and put in place from the top down. If there’s a lesson from them it is that capitalizing on crisis for effecting political change far beyond the problem immediately before you does not need to be the province of the right alone, and it may in fact be the only path to reform when things are sufficiently dire.

This appears to be constant. Change requires a forceful leader, a crisis, or a combination of the two. You can’t create policy in a vacuum though. You need people to stand up and argue for your position and you need people yelling at you for not going far enough.

I think we’re in a situation analogous to the 1930s, but there’s no good ideas on the left floating around outside a tiny echo chamber of upper middle class intellectuals. The public simply won’t vote for them because they’re in the thrall of dead, discredited zombie ideas. They aren’t dumb; they’re just so soaked in the previous worldview they can’t conceive of any alternatives, and no one is even trying to sell them on one. Imagine the 1930s with the progressive movement but no working class union members; it’s a joke, as back then the ratio of working class to everyone else was way bigger.

It took the incredible disillusionment of World War 1 and the Great Depression to break public opinion, break the Supreme Court, and elect unbelievably large majorities to change things. During that period public opinion was molded by rabble rousers, union members, share-the-wealth cultists, Land Tax proponents, Huey Long, shared appliance freaks, and other “crazy” people. At no point were elected officials or normal politics in the driver’s seat. It’s difficult to believe today, but FDR was the conservative end of public opinion about what reforms needed to be taken. We’re lucky we didn’t get a populist technocrat theocracy.

By contrast today, near as I can tell the only non-Democratic party groups of significance out there on the left are 100% focused on non-economic and non-foreign policy issues - the environment, civil rights, etc; with the exception of Israel, I guess, which given post-9/11 public opinion is pissing into the wind. The only group that still cares about the economy and what it means for workers, unions, are back pre-1900 levels of power; arrayed against them is basically every single conservative voter and issue group in the country.

Containment does sound like a strange example, but I think it’s useful. The specific policy was a decent choice from the available options - which is why having component officials in charge is a good idea - but it was chosen in a political space of near-hysteria about the “threat of Communism”, and that situation was not created by elected officials or organized party politics. A variety of right of center and centrist groups figured out how to use the post-war situation (USSR in half of Europe, playing hardball with the rest, China lost to communists when we had this incredible pre-war fascination with them) and the incredibly strong nationalism created by WW2 to push for a strategy that would be literally inconceivable pre-war. The politicians picked it up and ran with it.

On foreign policy today, the logical end point of the thinking brought about by the Cold War has us with a Roman Empire mindset. Vietnam but a big dent in it, but the end of the Cold War apparently cancelled that right back out. Then we blew it in Iraq 2, but we’re still not back to Vietnam-level; public opinion is still incredible nationalist compared to any other rich country on the earth.

To elaborate on what IL is saying, I suppose a war that killed an enormous number of American troops for little or nothing but might shake the public out of it, which isn’t exactly something to hope for, but barring that you need sustained outside thought-model convincing of the public or consistent pressure on the political system. We’re just not getting it, so the only countervailing force to Nationalist Crazy is well-educated upper middle class types, which is bringing a dead frog to a knife fight.

I suppose over the 50+ year long-run demographics might help, but unlike racial politics I don’t see a reason that a bigger non-white population has to necessarily change nationalist opinion.

Jason, you’re trying to make this far more complex than it is. We don’t need WWIII to simply tell the people in charge “I will not accept you treating Manning in an abusive manner and singling him out for treatment like what we’re reading about. Keep him in his cell, treat him normally and humanely. Or I start quietly firing people. Got it?” We’re not saying free Manning - that would indeed cause outrage. Just simply tell the people in charge, as long as I am President, I will not allow prisoner abuse of the type I am hearing. That doesn’t take WWIII or the New Great Depression.

Same for things like The Patriot Act. He ran and won the presidency giving speeches on the problems with that law. All he would have to do is say Congress, reform this act and get rid of the abusive parts (as he so eloquently pointed out before he was president.) Who’s not going to vote for him that would have voted for him anyway if he makes a compelling case for the abusive parts being rewritten? Even less demanding, don’t push for it to be renewed. Even LESS demanding - don’t extend it EVEN FURTHER THAN THE REPUBLICANS WERE ASKING FOR! That doesn’t require an invasion of the U.S. by Iran. Just a little leadership and enough integrity to stand up for what you’ve been saying passionately for years.

You argued vehemently with me a year or so ago about how I was dumb to think closing Gitmo was not as simple as you stated. It is now such a black eye for the U.S. that late night politician and sitcoms use it as a punch line. Yet Obama is showing no urgency to do anything about it. That takes a nuclear explosion in New York City?

Why are you so abusive about the Republican yet so accepting and excuse making for the Democrats and Obama? To be consistent you have to say, well, you can’t blame Bush for lying about Iraq because the public really wanted to continue their blood lust after 9/11. It would have been political suicide to have stopped at Afghanistan.

Would you mind outlining any phenomenon that exhibits greater, more incomprehensive layers of complexity than the cultures sprung from man’s mind?

Seriously?

At this stage, supporting a Republican or Democrat administration is a question of flavour rather than content, because the institutions and bureaucracies are settled into their own little political fiefdoms that an outsider may attempt to steer but simply cannot force. There’s your complexity right there!

You do need a complete change of the current social paradigm, whether in an instant or across generations in order to get out of the current, atavistic political mindset. All the grand narratives have broken down, like the hype said they would, and they have been replaced by broken mirror fragments, everything reflecting everything else yet never providing coherence.

We need a new way to organize our perceptions, aspirations, creativity – in brief, our potential – that we simply have not found yet. We likely will not find it either until the old, illusory wars crumble.

Stop drawing those damn lines between conservatism and liberalism and use them to prove your point. Depending on your interpretation of history, economy or whatever, you can paint any kind of case for either party. Stop bickering about the relative merits of the elite and start wondering how you want things to work. That’s where change comes from, not an entrenched minority.

You can “tell” them all you want, but they’re not going to change a thing without public opposition. Give me a plausible plan that will get majority public support for treating Manning decently. Go ahead; note your starting point is probably majority support for the current mess and executing him.

Why are you so abusive about the Republican yet so accepting and excuse making for the Democrats and Obama? To be consistent you have to say, well, you can’t blame Bush for lying about Iraq because the public really wanted to continue their blood lust after 9/11. It would have been political suicide to have stopped at Afghanistan.

A President who makes terrible political decisions given a political context and the political context itself aren’t quite the same thing.

Jeff, you’ve consistently demonstrated that what you want from a President is principled stands on unpopular positions. You are not going to get it, ever, from the US political system. Sorry. The only example I can think of that’s even close is Truman desegregating the military, and that was slow-walked into implementation.

If you seriously think it’s possible, I hope by now you’ve learned that you need to support “extreme” primary candidates like Kuchinch and Goldwater to have any hope of implementation.

And that is the problem with the system as it stands. The status quo is considered the end all be all, rather than real change or real caring. Even by the so called Democrats.

This system is buggered. We all know it is controlled, and while some of us hoped Obama would be different, myself included, it turns out he will not, nor will 99% of other politicians.

Until we, as a country, as a world, can start making decisions based on protecting and building up our most vaulable asset, people, and do it without politics but science and reason, we are screwed.

There’s also the possibility that those positions, while they sound good during a campaign, may actually just be horrible policy if you were to actually do them.