Damnit, Qt3 ate my reply. Or my internet did.
To be brief - I’m objecting only to the use of procedural techniques to block the seating of Prosser if Kloppenburg doesn’t feel that there’s a legitimate concern that fraud lost her the election, or some other legitimate cause for appeal.
“I don’t like the policies that he will assist in pushing through” is not a legitimate reason to use procedural techniques to block an appointed official.
I haven’t been staying completely up to date on the results and such, but while it seems to me that there are some issues, none of it seems to be widespread, large-scale, or fraudulent shenanigans.
It all seems to boil down to incompetence and/or mismanagement. And there are statistical models for judging the effects of those, and frankly, from what I’ve seen, it still doesn’t look good for Kloppenburg even in the best case according to those models.
Raife
1702
You won’t know unless you do a recount, and you can’t just assume that Kloppenburg is doing it to block Prosser taking the bench. Saying it seems to be incompetence is, again, not restoring confidence in the system. Maybe instead of voter ID, we can focus on fixing these crazy problems once the ballots are collected? Maybe we can set it up so that Kathy Nicholas can be incompetent and still get the numbers right?
Anyway, this Levine-sponsored Prosser/Kloppenburg tangent is great and all, but again, I’m more concerned with the voter ID bill that is now before the legislature just in time for the recall elections. A bill supposedly designed to fix a problem that there is little evidence exists.
eznark
1703
When you win you get to make policy, even stupid policy. While the claims that Walker ran on union busting are dubious, there is no real question that Walker (and every republican in one form or another) supported a voter ID bill last election season. The republicans are giving Wisconsinites what they voted for. That’s the purpose of elections.
You’re absolutely right that I can’t assume it. I’m just saying that I don’t believe Kloppenburg, or in fact anyone (Republican or Democrat) should lightly employ any and all procedural steps available to them for the purpose of delaying the system.
Sometimes it’s a valid thing to do, but the lightness with which the proposal is tossed around is something which I find troubling.
With regards to the Voter ID bullshit, what are the possible applications of Federal law with regards to voter ID / poll tax stuff? I thought I read that in states where a State ID cannot be obtained free of charge, a voter ID requirement is considered a poll tax? Is that still the case, was that ever the case, and if it is the case, where does the state of Wisconsin fall?
Raife
1705
When six of eight recall petitions against republican state senators are successful when even one is a rare thing, and when you have hundreds of thousands of people protesting, it’s a pretty good sign that you are not giving the people what they voted for. That’s the purpose of recall elections.
Apparently there is a provision in the bill where if you request one, you can get a voucher for a free state-issued ID (free meaning that the state will pay for it, I thought we were broke?). Of course, you still have to get to a DMV, and there is also no funding for additional DMV staff or expanded hours, which will be a problem in rural areas. The bill also has a requirement for mailed-in absentee ballots to have a photocopy of a photo ID, which seniors should have fun with. They also amended the bill to include student ID’s, but no student ID issued anywhere in the state currently meets their requirements.
Voter ID is going to pass. Concealed carry is going to pass. The question is, will those and union busting piss off the electorate enough to make up for the people who get suppressed.
Raife
1706
Walker’s request for $150 million in Federal funds to upgrade the Chicago-Milwaukee rail line (most of which was included in the $810 million rail money he turned down earlier) was rejected. The $2 billion in new Federal rail money was available because it was rejected by Florida Governor, Rick Scott.
The largest recipients include the Northeast Corridor ($795 million), the Midwestern Region ($672 million) and the California and Northwest Region ($385 million). Among the projects getting funding are upgrades to provide 110 mph service from Chicago to Detroit.
Walker spokesman Cullen Werwie said “we are disappointed that Wisconsin’s proven Amtrak Hiawatha passenger rail service wasn’t included in the latest announcement of federal rail funding. This rail service plays a vital role in our transportation system and the application for funding would have bolstered the existing system, the Midwest’s infrastructure network and our economy as a whole.”
Wait, now he’s concerned about the Midwest’s infrastructure network and our economy as a whole?
eznark
1707
Absolutely, however that 6 GOP and 3 Dem state senators will be facing recall elections doesn’t mean the work of the currently elected officials should go on hold. Hell, the democrats were thrown out in November and still tried to ram through a number of bills in December before their terms were up. While in office I would expect (well, not really, but ideally) politicians to work towards what they ran on regardless of statewide public opinion.
Voter ID is going to pass. Concealed carry is going to pass. The question is, will those and union busting piss off the electorate enough to make up for the people who get suppressed.
Actually the new question seems to be whose voter suppression tactics will be more efficient. The GOP stopping people from voting with unnecessary ID laws or Dems using the courts to throw out votes. Politics in Wisconsin ladies and gentlemen…
As far as concealed carry, it’s got overwhelming support in the state. Why would that piss off anyone outside of the Isthmus?
Oh, please. We both know that if it wasn’t for highly partisan issues this judicial election wouldn’t have been a blip on anybody’s radar, and the Democrats (read unions) wouldn’t have been throwing so much money at Kloppenberg’s campaign and the Republicans (read business interests, Koch et al) wouldn’t have throwing so much money at Prosser’s. And never mind the fact that Kloppenberg actually is a Democrat and Prosser actually is a Republican. So, despite your objection, I really don’t see much reason to observe that formality for the purposes of discussion.
I think you may be misunderstanding something:
When you win an election, you get to try and implement policy as you see fit. Neither the state nor the nation is an elected dictatorship. A coalition that is on the losing end gets to try and stop you if they deem it in the interests of the people they represent, or even if they just don’t like the way you shake hands. The people who elected you get to legally change their minds by trying to have a recall if enough of them see fit, and apparently many of them do.
Welcome to Democracy in the U.S.A.!
True, but I’m of two minds on this use of recall elections. On the one hand, it’s as you say, the people have a right to try to recall elected officials for whatever reason they see fit. On the other hand, the recall mechanism wasn’t established for use as a political tool. It was established to be used in cases of malfeasance, or at least misfeasance, on the part of an elected official.
By using recall elections for political purposes, we move closer to a parliamentary system of no confidence votes. That may not be an inherently bad thing, but it does go against the grain of the American system, where political views are supposed to be expressed in regularly scheduled elections. True, it’s easy to see what’s happening in Wisconsin as an extraordinary attack on worker rights, but I don’t know that I’d care to see the use of recall elections become the norm.
The counter-argument to that, in my mind, is that they’re doing something that the voters never expected them to do, and they’re doing it immediately after an election. It’s something of a gray area, but there really needs to be some boundaries to how far an elected official can stray from their constituent’s wishes between elections.
eznark
1712
Of course this is all true, where did I contradict any of this? With the majority in the house, senate and the governorship the GOP has carte blanche until the next elections. In this case it happens to be a couple of recalls. That a number of individuals disagree with their policies and politics doesn’t mean they should simply ignore the will of the individuals who voted them into office.
Indeed, this is the very reason politics is so cyclical. One party wins, they overreach and the other party is motivated. The other party then repeats the cycle. I flat do not understand the outrage over the governor’s positions, especially his campaign promised positions like conceal/carry, killing the choo choo and voter ID.
The counter-argument to that, in my mind, is that they’re doing something that the voters never expected them to do, and they’re doing it immediately after an election. It’s something of a gray area, but there really needs to be some boundaries to how far an elected official can stray from their constituent’s wishes between elections.
I’d say the system is working as intended. The recall mechanic is put in place to deal with these issues, and the unhappy constituents have put the process in motion.
Raife
1713
The recall efforts against the three Democrats are pretty shady, what with all of the out-of state people paid to collect signatures and many of the signatures themselves being suspect. Even if recall elections for them are successfully triggered, Walker barely won in two of their Senate districts. Holperin is the only one who is really vulnerable, but his challenger is anoter Tea Party dude. You’d think they might have gone with someone more moderate? All six of the Republican recall Senate Districts went for Obama in 2008, so they are hardly safe R’s.
Framing it as Madison vs. the rest of the state is certainly what Walker likes to try to do. The question is, why are you? There are a lot of blue areas in the state outside of Madison, Milwaukee being the obvious example but certainly not the only one, the and irresponsible legislation is irresponsible regardless of which party proposes it. Personally, I don’t have a problem with concealed carry legislation as long as it’s responsible. I own guns and am a hunter. The constitutional carry bill is ridiculous, but we’ll see what gets through. My objection is the speed at which they are trying to ram this stuff through, especially with the unprecedented dissatisfaction people have already expressed. Pushing voter ID before the recall elections is especially offensive.
eznark
1714
I frame the conceal carry as Madison v. Wisconsin because it’s one issue that it seems to ring particularly true (and because the Madison Sheriff came out against Constitutional yesterday…timely!)
Not sure why it is offensive to wait for the recalls. There is always another election coming up. If lawmakers always waited until “the next election” nothing would ever get done…wait, suddenly I am on board! The fact is none of this is getting rammed through. Has the legislature passed anything of note since the budget fix? I mean, I know government workers are generally inefficient, but 4 months in and one significant piece of legislation? Woah…slow down!
As to the recalls, shady? Sounds an awful lot like the Republicans claims of voter fraud. I suppose “shady” is enough of a condemnation in this instance though because it hurts your side?
I actually haven’t looked, how did Prosser do in those districts that are up for recall?
eznark
1716
No it isn’t. Simply put, while in the majority whatever the GOP wants the GOP gets. Now, public and opposition pressure can shift the desires and direction of the GOP but ultimately they are the “deciders” until they are voted out of office.
I don’t understand the backlash against recalls at all. Recalls are a pain in the ass to call; you have to motivate a shitload of people to go bother a much bigger shitload of people to sign a petition to hold another election. So if your elected guy is going all batshit crazy, you have recourse, but it’s not a trivial undertaking.
Sounds about right to me.
Raife
1718
He wasn’t alone.
Last time this came up the only three Sheriffs supported it. One was Waukesha County, unsurprisingly.
A wide range of law enforcement groups oppose the legislation, including:
– The Badger State Sheriff’s Association
– The Wisconsin Chiefs of Police Association
– The Wisconsin Sheriffs and Deputy Sheriffs Association
– The Wisconsin District Attorneys Association
– The Wisconsin County Police Association
– The Association of State Prosecutors
– The Wisconsin TroopersAssociation
Additionally, out of 72 sheriffs in Wisconsin, just three are on record supporting a concealed hand gun law. And at least 65 sheriffs have vowed to opt out of the bill.
But please keep spouting arguments without supporting evidence, it’s the Republican way.
They have over 200 affidavits from people who were tricked into signing, and there are many other problems. On top of that, most of the collectors were paid and from out of the state, unlike the eight recall drives against the Republicans. The dude behind the 8 Democratic Senator recalls spent ten years in prison for fraud. There were 20 cases of illegal voting found in 2008, and Van Hollen was looking hard. It’s hardly comparable, but keep trying!
This is incredibly, blazingly wrong on every level.
eznark
1720
Absolutely. Though I haven’t seen a huge backlash against the recalls.
But please keep spouting arguments without supporting evidence, it’s the Republican way.
- Not a republican. 2. That others support stronger conceal/carry requirements doesn’t negate Mahoney’s support. 3. How many sheriffs support a conceal/carry bill now? That article lists more than three law enforcement officials who seem to favor some form of conceal/carry. I imagine officials at the time were unwilling to back a bill that had literally zero chance of being signed. What would the point have been?
It’s a little disingenuous to post the list as though those groups have come out against current forms of the legislation when you c&p’d it from a 2003 Doyle press release.
It’s amazing how much you sound like GOPpers ripping ACORN when you talk about the recall efforts. Not quite as amazing as the fact that you’re completely oblivious to it though.
This is incredibly, blazingly wrong on every level.
How so? Until they are voted out they can pass whatever legislation they so choose. Is it politically wise? No, of course not. Can the legislation they pass be undone, challenged in court, rewritten and amended…of course. Fact remains that should the GOP hold together as a majority they have the power to pass any bill they so choose.
