World Cup 2010 (that's interesting)

JM1 · 2010-07-02T14:50:21.000Z

Tim Partlett:

It is cheating to foul someone for an advantage.

Ghana are cheats. Thank you, Tim.

Skipper · 2010-07-02T14:50:43.000Z

Imagine being Gyan tonight on that plane home. What a fucking depressing flight.

Tim_Partlett · 2010-07-02T14:51:12.000Z

strummer:

No he didn’t get away with it - he was penalized in accordance with the rules. If you don’t think the rules establish a proper or harsh enough penalty, then that is a different argument.

He got away with it because the cost to Uruguay was nothing. If he’d cheated at 1 minute into the game, the team would suffer from being down to ten men. That’s not the case at 120+1 minutes. And it’s not a different argument to think the rules aren’t harsh enough - that’s exactly the argument I’m making :).

If the rules allowed the referee to give the goal to Ghana in spite of his cheating, then he wouldn’t have got away with it. But because they had to take a high pressure penalty and missed, he did.

JM1 · 2010-07-02T14:53:25.000Z

Tim Partlett:

He got away with it because the cost to Uruguay was nothing.

Categorically wrong. The player was sent off and Ghana were given the opportunity to score from 12 yards.

Tim_Partlett · 2010-07-02T14:55:27.000Z

JM:

Ghana are cheats. Thank you, Tim.

Like all teams, Ghana were guilty of deliberate fouls. They did a bit of diving too. Yeah, they cheated too. But they didn’t cheat their way into the semi-finals with a last minute hand ball on the line.

I’m not sure what your problem is here. If Ghana had deliberately fouled a player on his way to score a certain goal, it would be cheating just the same as handling on the line to stop a goal.

Tim_Partlett · 2010-07-02T14:57:22.000Z

JM:

Categorically wrong. The player was sent off and Ghana were given the opportunity to score from 12 yards.

Ghana missed the penalty and Uruaguay played zero minutes with ten men. The cheating cost them nothing and won them a place in the semi-final. They got away with it.

sinfony · 2010-07-02T15:01:21.000Z

Tim Partlett:

Ghana missed the penalty and Uruaguay played zero minutes with ten men. The cheating cost them nothing and won them a place in the semi-final. They got away with it.

Maybe you’d like to rewrite the rules so that if the red card is handed out at the last minute, they get some additional benefit. In the meantime, the rules are the rules.

And it cost them nothing? They’re without their top scorer for the rest of the World Cup.

JM1 · 2010-07-02T15:02:03.000Z

Tim Partlett:

Like all teams, Ghana were guilty of deliberate fouls. They did a bit of diving too. Yeah, they cheated too. But they didn’t cheat their way into the semi-finals with a last minute hand ball on the line.

I think we’ve established that your definition of cheating isn’t really standing up to scrutiny, Tim, especially as you’ve had to admit that it means that pretty much every player cheats (by your definition) in every match.

I’m not sure what your problem is here. If Ghana had deliberately fouled a player on his way to score a certain goal, it would be cheating just the same as handling on the line to stop a goal. It’s a world of difference.

And if Ghana had deliberately fouled a player on his way to score a certain goal it would’ve been a foul and a red card, and presumably a penalty if it was a ‘certain goal’. The laws of the game already cater for this. There is punishment in place. Just because you don’t like the fact that Suarez did exactly the right thing for his team doesn’t mean Uruguay have dishonestly gotten into the semi final. Suarez’s act wasn’t dishonest - he did what he did and got caught. It’s not like he dived for a penalty, which certainly would be deserving of the abuse that’s coming his way.

Tim Partlett:

Ghana missed the penalty and Uruaguay played zero minutes with ten men. The cheating cost them nothing and won them a place in the semi-final. They got away with it.

Irrelevant. Ghana had the penalty, which they missed. Uruguay also lost one of their best players for the shootout, which Ghana fucked up.

Suarez’s act still gave Ghana a chance to score. That was part of the punishment. The fact that Ghana’s nerve failed them at that point AND in the ensuing shoot-out when they STILL had an advantage is not something to beat Uruguay around the head with.

sinfony · 2010-07-02T15:02:31.000Z

Tim Partlett:

Like all teams, Ghana were guilty of deliberate fouls. They did a bit of diving too. Yeah, they cheated too. But they didn’t cheat their way into the semi-finals with a last minute hand ball on the line.

I’m not sure what your problem is here. If Ghana had deliberately fouled a player on his way to score a certain goal, it would be cheating just the same as handling on the line to stop a goal.

This happens in every sport, and it’s a smart play in every sport.

Volksy · 2010-07-02T15:03:15.000Z

Yes, because we know Suarez was under no pressure having two shots blasted at him in a matter of seconds in the 120th minute of a tie game with his team’s fortunes on the line. I suppose he should calmly think things through in that situation, have complete control of his reflexes, and decide to sportingly allow the ball past him.

Maybe it’s just me being American, but I fully expect a player going in for a layup at the end of Game 7 of the NBA Finals to win the game to get fouled rather than be allowed an easy score. I wouldn’t consider the defender to have “cheated” in that situation.

Tim_Partlett · 2010-07-02T15:03:18.000Z

sinfony:

And it cost them nothing? They’re without their top scorer for the rest of the World Cup.

It cost them nothing in the game. It doesn’t matter to Ghana, or the final result, that Suarez will miss the semi-final.

sinfony · 2010-07-02T15:07:42.000Z

Tim Partlett:

It cost them nothing in the game. It doesn’t matter to Ghana, or the final result, that Suarez will miss the semi-final.

It’s not supposed to matter to Ghana. You don’t get a cookie from the referee when the other team commits a foul. That’s like saying it doesn’t matter that Player X got his second yellow of the tournament in the game because it doesn’t do Ghana any good that he misses the next game.

And where was your choir-boy madness when Ghana pretended injuries to drag out extra time against the United States? That’s actually cheating, since they got away with it.

EDIT: Also, having arguably your best striker unavailable for penalty kicks is a pretty big deal. Remember that guy who crushed it into the stands? Yeah, he’s not taking that kick if Suarez is there. See also Trezeguet in the 2006 final - if Zidane’s on the pitch, Trezeguet doesn’t take that shot and France doesn’t lose.

JM1 · 2010-07-02T15:08:01.000Z

OK, I think it’s obvious at this point that Tim’s going to trot out the “it cost them nothing!” line ad infinitum. Moving on.

bandidoquest · 2010-07-02T15:08:26.000Z

Blame Gyan for that, not Suarez.

Dave_Perkins · 2010-07-02T15:08:41.000Z

Claiming that Uruguay “cheated” their way into the final is pout-induced lunacy.

Tim_Partlett · 2010-07-02T15:08:51.000Z

JM:

I think we’ve established that your definition of cheating isn’t really standing up to scrutiny, Tim, especially as you’ve had to admit that it means that pretty much every player cheats (by your definition) in every match.

Does every player dive in every match? Does every player deliberately trip an opponent in every match? No. Basically most yellow and red cards are for cheating, like blocking a goal or pass with a hand ball.

"MSN Encarta Dictionary":

cheat

intransitive verb - break rules to gain advantage: to break the rules in a game, examination, or contest, in an attempt to gain an unfair advantage

I’m not going to argue this any more. If you guys want to celebrate cheats, that’s up to you. I think it’s disgusting, personally, and totally spoils the game.

sinfony · 2010-07-02T15:10:49.000Z

I’m confused, then, as to why you’re not banging the drum for Brazil. The equalizing goal was a cheat!

JM1 · 2010-07-02T15:12:32.000Z

Tim Partlett:

Does every player dive in every match? Does every player deliberately trip an opponent in every match? No. Basically most yellow and red cards are for cheating, like blocking a goal or pass with a hand ball.

What? Yes, pretty much every player will deliberately break the laws of the game during a match. Sometimes they even get caught.

Most yellows and reds are for persistent fouling.

Do you watch much football?

Tim_Partlett · 2010-07-02T15:18:13.000Z

I’m actually quite surprised and a bit disappointed that I seem to be largely alone in arguing my case. I’d been very impressed with the US team and their honest attitude towards the game during this World Cup. When Bob Bradley was asked whether the US would target Rooney to try and get him red carded, he said “no”, because that would be against the idea of fair play. My respect for US football has grown during this world cup, just for their honest attitude towards the game.

I thought their supporters were of the same mind, but here I am being told I’m insane for thinking that Uruguay cheated their way into the semi-finals. I know you aren’t all US supporters, but that’s the majority here…

Woolen_Horde · 2010-07-02T15:24:29.000Z

The Dutch have to be feeling great right now. Their opponent for the semis is exhausted physically and emotionally from having to go to PKs, plus they not only lose Suarez but Fucile got his second consecutive yellow and is out, too.