3021

I agree, definitely should be a good mix on tank placement. Your tank should ideally be on top as much as on the bottom. The T-34 is unfortunately too fragile for matches with the Tier 8 tanks. It rarely gets to play in an environment where it is tough to penetrate (as it was historically).

I find both the German and USA tier 5 mediums do better, although they are less maneuverable, mostly because their armor is better. Also the T-34 gun has good penetration and a high rate-of-fire, but not much damage. This means you have to stay exposed quickly shooting at a target for maximum damage, instead of being able to shoot and withdraw while reloading, which increases the amount of damage the already fragile T-34 takes.

3022

It’s not just the Lowe and KV-5 anymore. Just got out of a match with my Tier 7 VK3002(DB) and one side had a Maus, a VK4502, and two T34s. Our side had an IS-7, a T30, three IS-4s, a VK4502P, two IS-3s, a Tiger II and a Lowe.

Personally I wished they’d limit matches by tank type, like they do with artillery. I find the matches more interesting with more variety.

3023

Another part of the perception issue is this whole penetration/damage thing. It seems that the game is too generous in letting tanks absorb penetrating hits. In WWII, by my understanding at least, penetration was king. Smaller weapons like the high velocity 37mm and 57mm guns, for instance, were actually better AT weapons than lower velocity 75mm weapons, despite the greater damage potential (in game terms) of the latter. The game does model this somewhat, but because it doesn’t handle the true consequences of penetration on the internals and crew of tanks very well (thus minimizing the effects of those penetrations) and it abstracts a lot of things to get that tank health figure, you end up with the rather absurd over use of HE, the undervaluing of historically superb weapons like the German 75L70, and because the game doesn’t model overpowering of armor by large diameter shells, you also get oddities like very large high velocity shells bouncing off of armor that they would have most likely simply crushed.

None of which is terribly important in whether the game is fun or not, in and of itself, but the developers seem to be mixing equal parts realism with game-y mechanics, and the brew is sometimes a bit odd. I am fine with either/or, or even both, but the whole “lets make CounterStrike with WWII tanks” thing, while often a real hoot to play, leads to all sorts of ways to get into trouble, on the game front or the historical front.

3024

Seriously, I want what you are smoking, or maybe you can tell me the super secret aiming spot on a tank or are you using gold ammo? I have a StugIII and I like playing it, but the amount of damage against tier7’s, 8’s and 9’s is pathetic. I’m fully upgraded and I lose count of the “i hardly put a dent in it”, “bounced”, etc. Just today in my stugIII I hit a M6A2E1 7 times and took him down for a total of 6%. I’ve tried both AP and HE rounds and against higher tier tanks, it is just a death sentence even shooting the gun against higher tier tanks.

3025

I have no problem at all playing tier 5 vehicles vs tier 7. Its tier 5 vs tier 8 where I start to call unfair and tier 5 vs tier 9 where i sometimes just suicide scout so I can launch another battle faster.

3026

Not sure what I’m smoking, but it is gooood! My StuG win loss record: 58% wins / 38% losses. No gold ammunition used.

Seriously you don’t have to be the hero that brings down the big baddie in 1-2 shots to make a very valuable contribution to your team. Sometimes delaying the enemy heavies is enough, if your own heavies are busy tearing up the enemy on another part of the map. Sometime you lose regardless of what you do, but generally a StuG with the top gun should be able to do good damage against almost all opponents, and make a very solid contribution to winning the match.

The StuG also has very good maneuverability which means that after taking a couple shots, it can displace to another firing location of its choosing. So for example when facing overwhelming enemy force take some shots, to force the enemy tanks to stop, then back away and move to another firing position. Repeat the process until either help comes, or hopefully your team (which presumably is mostly somewhere else, or you shouldn’t be alone) beats up whatever they are facing and caps.

StuGs 75mm KwK 42 L/70 does 138mm of penetration, Tiger I hull is 100mm, T29 hull is 128mm, IS hull is 120mm. So it can definitely penetrate Tier 7 heavies. On most but not all tanks your best bet is to aim for the hull. Tier 8s can be a bit harder, and you’ll bounce some or need to get a side shot. The M6A2E1 you mentioned is Tier 8 and has a very thick front hull and turret, but it’s side hull and turret are pathetic (44mm hull, 89mm turret). AIUI StuGs should not be getting matched against Tier 9s.

With Tier 8s I sometimes switch to HE. I figure if I can bring down the health of a tank 3 tiers above me by about 30% (say 5-6 shots of HE) that is a very solid contribution to my team. Hopefully your teammates are also chewing it up. Or if you’re alone, that 30% you contributed will make it that much easier for a teammate out the Tier 8 later in the match.

Generally IMO your best bet as a TD is to stay back and snipe at things. You may not be able to penetrate with every shot, but if you can hit the enemy 5 times and penetrate 3-4 times before it can even see you, you’re in pretty good shape. Also a lot of times if you’re sniping from far away, and the enemy isn’t aware of your presence they’ll turn their sides towards you and that makes it even easier to penetrate.

There are some specific weak points that you can target, although I find it easier to do so with a fast medium than with a TD, since I mostly snipe from far away with a TD. If you get a chance shoot them in the rear in the engine compartment (admittedly not very likely as a sniping TD), this often starts a fire. Also some tanks have crew access hatches on the rear of the turret (like the large boxy KV-2 turret). You can also blast viewports. A lot of people recommend hitting the turret ring, although I’ll have to say, I haven’t had that much luck with it. Also if you’ve got company with you, shooting a tank’s tracks so they stay visible and vulnerable and your teammates can shoot it is also valuable, this also sometimes makes the tank turn sideways, exposing their vulnerable sides to your team’s fire.

I’m hardly the best player here. So hopefully some of the real experts can chip in with their advice. The official Basic Tactics page is quite good.

IMO TDs should rarely assault. They should mostly stay on the defensive. There are some specific situations in which they can advance. They work well in narrow corridors like city streets where opponents are forced to come straight in at them. Keep in mind that if you can be flanked as a TD you will be in big trouble. The StuG is very fast and can pull things off like sneaking behind enemy lines and base capturing or taking out artillery, but you should be very cautious doing this as if you are caught by an enemy medium tank at close range, you will be toast. This is even more important with other TDs. The StuG is able to turn quickly to keep facing an opponent, unless it gets tracked. Most TDs can’t. But even with a StuG if your enemy tracks you while you are in the open they will then destroy you while you can’t shoot back.

3027

Scout tanks are screwed unless they like scouting no doubt about it. I still think having 1-2 really tough tanks per side can make the game much more interesting – say with 2 tier 8 tanks mixed in with tier 5-7. Also keep in mind if you’re the tier 5 tank in a tier 5-8 match, most of your teammates should be able to beat up on the tier 8 tank. You can concentrate on thinning out the tier 5-7 tanks to give your team the best chance to win.

I personally think it’s boring for every tank to have equal chance of defeating every other tank every game. I agree with JonC that there should be a good mix of matches where you are on top of the team listing as often as you are on the bottom of the listing.

3028

Agreed. The whole hit point thing is just silly from a realism standpoint. For example an M4A3E8 has almost twice the hit points of a regular M4 (720hp vs. 400). Does this mean in real life that an M4A3E8 could take twice as many hits?

It does lead to a nice game though, where you get tougher as you level up.

The developers have talked about a “realism” mode for hardcore players where they get rid of the hit points and the game play strictly based on penetration an inner module damage. Would definitely be interesting to try out.

3029

Another thought on the Tier 5 vs. Tier 8 tank thing. You don’t have to engage every time you see a target. It’s very situational. If the enemy Tier 8 is engaged with friendly forces, particularly if it’s unsupported, then yes, go charge in, particularly if you can flank it. If you can’t flank switch to HE and help bring it down.

On the other hand, if you’re by yourself, check the map situation. Where are your friendly forces? Can you draw it back toward where friendly higher-tier forces are available to support? Are you the last line of defense?

Sometimes sacrificing your tank is the right move. Sometimes you’re better off pulling back and living to fight later in the match.

3030

what you are forgetting to mention that for all its greatness, anything with a better gun than a 57mm will one-shot your precious stug. play it like it has no armor at all.

3031

One shot, no way. StuG in my experience is tougher than a T-34. The only things that should reliably one-shot a StuG is a KV derp gun. Even an 88mm can’t one shot a StuG unless it gets lucky. StuG has 350hp. A Pzkw IV 75mm does 135 points damage. 76mm top gun for Sherman, M4A3E8 Sherman, and T1 heavy only does 115 damage. A German 88mm used on the VKs and Tigers only does 220hp damage. Even a M6 90mm does only 240 hp damage. None of those can one shot a StuG.

My experience is that the StuG is pretty much just as tough and sturdy as a Tier V medium. A T-34 has 400hp and the armor is actually thinner (although I think it’s better slopped). Sherman has 400hps and the same armor. Plus the StuG has got a lower profile so it’s harder to hit.

The StuG is not particularly fragile for its tier.

Are you sure you aren’t thinking about the Marder? Now that is a true glass cannon. Although even the Marder rather surprisingly takes 2 hits for most tanks to kill.

3032

See, this is where you & I differ. You actually put value if you can hit something for 5% a shot, where I don’t.

Vision, or how far things can see, is completely lost to me. I have a crew that is at 85%, I have camo, and I have binoculars, and tanks still see me before I see them. I guess I need to spring for the coated optics.

But one thing is certain…if you shoot your TD, you are dead. I have lost count of how many times I was 100-200m behind my team-mates and I die. I look around and no enemy remotely close to my position.

I would say that it’s not very often I get one-shotted, more like 5 people all shooting me within one second of me shooting, so it’s about the same thing. But the number of higher tier tanks that can 2-shot me, now that is a long list. Oh, and how many shots does it take me to kill them? TWENTY.

The matchmaking system is fubar. Either match me up against tanks relative to myself, or at least give me the same % at the top as I do in the bottom. That’s what I’m discussing here. Are you saying that it’s Ok to have 40% of my games where I’m one of the bottom 3 tanks in the match?

3033

StuG III is much harder to play after 0.6.4 with the 75mm L/70, as you neutralize any bush/tree cover within 15 meters every single time you fire.

It used to be an incredible vehicle – even useful in battles with tier 8s present, but it’s much tougher these days.

That said, there are essentially two ways to play it:

  1. Using the 75mm L/70 you have to constantly find ways to hit side armor. Targeting side armor, you can consistently penetrate even Tiger IIs and VK45s. You can penetrate with virtually every shot any US heavy tank (by aiming at the hull). You can penetrate many Russian heavies, with the exception of KV-3 and IS-3 which will give about ~50% penetration rates on side armor.
    However, this requires a great deal of maneuvering which can get tricky. It also requires you to sit 15 meters (or further) behind bushes and constantly rely on teammates to spot things. Trying to spot things yourself from right behind the bush is suicide in 0.6.4 for most TDs, and especially so for a rapid firing gun.

  2. The StuG has that 105mm gun that, when used with HE ammo (only), can allow one to engage any target from the front. No matter the armor levels, some damage will get through. The lower the armor, the more damage. In fact, it’s not uncommon to one shot kill fellow tier 5 TDs and tier 4 mediums. Hitting a tier 5 medium on the side can take off 80% of their health.
    But the main strength is that you can hit anything from any direction. The drawback is the inaccuracy of the gun. You won’t be hitting moving targets very often. No need to perform dangerous maneuvers, however, in order to target side/rear armor, which can make life a lot easier.

Never try to be on the front line in a StuG III, you only have 350 health (that’s even less than the 460 for a fully upgraded tier 5 medium – which is already squishy enough). Always behind soft/hard cover. Always a ways behind the team-mates and never try to spot things yourself unless there is no other choice.

In general a source of frustration may be that patch 0.6.4 made life a lot harder for TDs in general. Now firing your gun removes concealment from all bushes or trees within 15 meters. That tends to be problematic for vehicles that have very little to no armor. In a truly support role, one must now rely on teammates to spot targets, while keeping oneself hidden by staying farther than 15 meters from soft cover.

3034

My JgdPzr IV does have binoculars, but my StuG did not. Supposedly you can actually stack the coated optics and binoculars, although I haven’t tried it. As a TD your vision is lower than that of a tank (in part because your tank is lower – you are harder to see and you also don’t see as well).

I generally don’t rely on my own vision to find targets. If possible you want to be firing at targets beyond visual range using someone else’s spots. With a good gun you can actually hit targets at over 500m. As this is the max visual range, you can guarantee they won’t shoot back, unless they’ve got a spotter close by which you don’t know about.

If you’ve got 5 people shooting at you all at once that either means you’ve screwed up on placement or your team has (which admittedly happens). I will put my TD as the sole guardian on a flank if no one else will cover it. But I also chat my team that I need help. If they leave me all alone and I get rolled, that’s not my fault, that’s my team’s fault. On both advance and defence you should be far enough behind your peers that the enemy sees plenty of juicy targets closer in. The main exception being urban maps. Even on urban maps, I often select firing lanes where I can shoot straight down for some distance, getting multiple hits in before they figure out what’s shooting at them and react. Personally I haven’t found the 0.6.4 changes as bad as I had feared.

As a TD I’m fine having a bit over a third of my games resulting in me being in the bottom 33% of the tier. As I mentioned previously my criteria for a reasonable match is that I should be able to reliably penetrate somewhere just over half of all the tanks on the battlefield. As a TD you should expect to end up in the bottom a bit over 33% same as with scouts. The match making takes into account the fact that TDs have better guns then tanks for the same tier and therefore tends to put them in higher matches.

Tman you might want to try playing mediums (or even heavies). My T20 is a huge amount of fun and doesn’t run into any of the problems that seem to be frustrating you. The T-44 which I played is beta is great, great fun, but you do have to go through the A-20 grind to get it. If you go up the KV heavy line you’ll get some very good guns that should be able to penetrate almost anything. Even at tier IV the Russian heavies gives you some very good guns for the T-28.

3035

My TD of choice right now is my SU-100 with the last 122 before the SU-152 bump (I am skipping the nice 85 to get to the 152 I think). It’s a very solid vehicle, with reasonable speed, decent protection for a TD in its tier, and a good if not terribly accurate gun. It has crap maneuverability compared to a much nimbler StuG, but it can kill a lot of stuff. With camo and a rammer it’s a reasonably effective vehicle.

But it’s also frustrating, as all TDs are, for the reasons elucidated above. Also, in maps where there are very logical defensive positions custom made it would seem for TDs, you always end up with some jack hole in a highly mobile medium camping the spot. WTF? You have a tank whose primary utility comes from a decent gun on a highly mobile and flexible platform, and you park it in a bush? Leave the freaking bush to TDs who need it.

3036

My TD of choice right now is a fully upgraded Ferdi. :) Especially considering the latest changes to camo.

Actually my TD of choice is 2 Ferdi’s and one ISU-152. :) That was our platoon yesterday and in most matches we killed 8-12 enemy tanks. Ferdi’s are shielding the ISU from the enemies, ISU is raping enemies from behind. It’s a very hard to kill combination, that’s why they have arty in the game. :)

3037

That would be interesting, but given how easy gunnery and spotting is compared to real life I imagine the carnage would be intense.

3038

Well, I never reached a Ferdi in beta, as the grind through the JgdPz IV was too long in that time frame, but they sure seem good. This time I’m going the Soviet route so Object 704 here I come! Eventually.

3039

Have you driven a KV with a derp gun? su152 is like a faster version of that. fun times.

3040

Yeah, I did the derp KV in beta en route to a IS-3, which is as far as I got. I loved the hit of the 152, but the rate of fire, oy vey. Very satisfying to see things go poof! right in front of you though.