4621

And yet here we are with multiple-page arguments over how the game is too complex now. DPSers who don’t pay attention to game mechanics die.

4622

One thing you’re missing is Clearcasting for mages doesn’t work that way anymore. Now, 3/3 is a 40% chance to proc clearcasting, but has a 15 second cooldown.

So going 3/3 isn’t nearly as much as 3x the procs as 1/3. Probably less than twice, since the cooldown is the bigger limiter. The first point in clearcasting is much more valuable than the other two.

4623

I don’t think anybody is complaining about the game being too hard in principle. I’m not, anyway. My only problem is that the game got too hard for a lot of people who expected to be able to play it but no adjustment was made to communicate that fact. The reason I’m so gung ho about raising the gear level for heroics is because it would at least force people to actually work to get to them, rather than stumbling ass-over-elbows into them after they ding 85. In TBC, you had to jump through eighty seven different hoops to get to heroics, which meant that only people who were serious about doing them until they were done were there. In Cataclysm, we’re teleporting people into these things with the expectation that they stand a snowball’s chance in hell of finishing one when they really don’t. That doesn’t just ruin the bad player’s experience - it also craps all over the other four people who have to carry him, and the sad fact is that a lot of bad players will never understand that they’re the ones doing something wrong as long as there are four other people in the instance to blame that they don’t even share a server with, much less a vent channel.

4624

If moving out of fire, or to avoid being charged is complex then you’re right, the game is too complex and should be nerfed to easier levels. Oh wait, nerfs are already happening in heroics because of people crying, and that is still going to continue to a point where even almost instant gib mechanics will come to a ‘doesn’t matter don’t worry about it’ point like WoTLK heroics.

I run random pug heroics far too often for any sane person and the difference from now and even 2 weeks ago is huge in regards to DPS being able to flatly ignore certain boss and/or trash mechanics. Add to that the constant nerfing of things and we’ll be back to WoTLK heroics in no time, except there will be less of them to do so people will be bored even more quickly.

There really is nothing hard or complex about any of the heroic encounters which is rather disappointing. But then this stems to their whole design philosophy of wanting to cater to the masses, however they don’t really make sense since the masses do 5 mans, but they reduce the content of 5 mans by 25% or so this xpac released compared to the last and maintain the raid content size basically.

4625

Please don’t assume I’m saying it needs nerfing. Anyone who’s bothered following the thread knows otherwise.

It’s just that claiming that DPS classes don’t need to pay attention in heroics is just lazy stereotyping. Yes, it’s harder for tanks and healers, but if you ignore game mechanics you will most likely die. That is not a controversial point of view.

But then this stems to their whole design philosophy of wanting to cater to the masses

Come on. It’s pretty obvious things have gotten harder since WOTLK. It’s hardly been dumbed down.

Brian: You’re two expansions behind. Unlike WOTLK, you can’t just jump straight into heroics. Unlike WOTLK, normal mode instances actually provide some challenge for a freshly 85 character, and you WILL have to learn mechanics.

4626

I just refuse to tank for folks I don’t know. That includes my guild and the folks in the (prior) guild alliance we were in. (Cata’s guild system has pretty much killed much of us doing stuff together, but we still keep in touch via an in-game channel and prefer to recruit from that pool for dungeons if we need extras rather than random LFDness…)

Removing the stress of worrying about getting yelled at if I don’t pick up the adds because someone else broke CC (or was too lazy to CC in the first place) makes it so that the only thing I have to do is live up to -my- expectations (which are, admittedly, the same as an LFD group’s would be… I should be able to control everything; but at least it’s an internal shaming when I fail).

The tank/healing changes coupled with heroics being as hard as they are seems destined to break the LFD system at the higher levels. It’ll be okay once folks are supremely overgeared, but I expect to see a lot of angst over LFD douchery until then.

4627

reduce the content of 5 mans by 25% or so this xpac released compared to the last

Wrath launched with 12 heroics vs. 9 in Cata, but I’m guessing the total number of bosses is pretty similar. IIRC, only two Wrath heroics had five bosses and none had more than that.

4628

I know. That’s the point. The barrier for getting into the 85 dungeons and the barrier for getting into the heroics are close enough to one another to be negligible. It seems like the intent was for people to do the 85 dungeons a few times and figure out whether or not this was something they enjoyed and maybe learn some useful things, but they don’t force players to do that first. I just want to force players to learn in a lower-risk environment.

4629

Oh, for some reason I love healing with my 50 or so Pally:

Good Foz: I love the fact that I can personally save the PUG with a couple well timed choices of spells. Plus the short amount of time queueing really helps…

Bad Foz: Those who annoy me (or annoy the group) do not get heals. This goes for you mister Rush Rush Rush “TANK WHY AREN"T WE CHAINPULLING DPS PULLS GET THIS OFF OF ME YOU ALL SUCK”

4630

Do it like I do: Stop running Heroics until they are nerfed back to WoTLK levels. In fact as I’m not raiding anymore I didn’t step into any Heroic so far although I have enough ilevel (334 on rogue and 332 on lock). The amount of bad players in normal is far enough right now.
I have the capabilities as I regularly top the dps charts in those runs while offering the full utility of the lock class (healthstones, SS always on the healer) while not taking by far as many damage as melee and soaking healer mana (apart from life tab).

I do my dailies on my 2 lvl 85s and run 2-3 normals on my main (lock) for some rep and then log off again to play something else.

LFD did totally destroy people knowing each other.
Before I could check the guild tags and I knew this would most probably a smooth run or I would be in for some challenge.
Today I’m thrown into a group with 4 others from 4 different servers most likely with guild names I never heard before.

One consequence of WoTLK is that I adapted my time dedicated to WoW to much less than before (as there was not enough to do besides leveling alts). I’m simply not willing to do instances for 3-4 hours now with people I don’t know whether I have a chance to finish them or not.
Sorry but that ship has sailed Blizzard.

I see signs that I’m not the only one and I assume Blizzard will nerf faster in the coming weeks / months as they probably have in-depth data of Heroic runs (% finished successful, fell apart, accounts running them etc.).

4631

I totally agree.

Now that I’ve geared up a bit, healing Heroics is noticeably easier. So I think a possible solution to Brian’s problem would be to provide a tiered gear-level requirement for Heroics, and make a few of them shorter. So, when you hit iLevel 329, you get access to one quick Heroic - say Vortex Pinnacle, or something along the lines of the Forge of Souls in size. So you can learn new mechanics, wipe multiple times, but still complete the dungeon in a reasonable amount of time. Then, when you hit higher gear levels, new Heroics open up.

I like the challenge of Heroics, but the time they take - magnified by the “multiple wipe” learning mechanic - really limits my ability to run them.

4632

This - seriously, if you don’t like how your tank tanks, play your own fucking tank. Also, sometimes when the tank fails to hold aggro, just sometimes, IT’S YOUR FAULT.

4633

While I will concede that the basic gist of your argument here is correct, “playing your own tank” is something like a forty hour investment, based on my experiences with my new Warrior. I could go faster if it weren’t for some rules about when I’m allowed to play on him, but I’d be shocked if I could make it to max level in less than a day poopsocking all the way.

4634

What? Yes they do. You do not hit 85 and get into random heroics. It won’t let you.

4635

My point is you’re not forced to learn in the top dungeons long enough. Because the average gear level is so low, you level out quickly. Raising the bar would both force players to spend more time in an environment where they’re more likely to learn the things they need to know and require that players intentionally and deliberately work toward the goal of doing heroics, rather than having them fall into their laps like any other quest you assume you’ll be able to complete.

4636

I’m thinking about it, but only because I’m totally sucked in. I’m going to bed too late, playing from work during lunch, and exercise? Pfft, I don’t have time for that!

I am thoroughly addicted atm. I think I need to pick a night or two a week where I refuse to log in.

4637

Tanking is not hard. Period. It’s a joke. People who say tanking is hard have no concept of what hard is in my books. You hit 4 buttons and move out of something on the ground. Threat is a complete joke with vengence. As the tank on trash pulls I am consistantly the TOP DPS due to vengence. I also don’t CC anything anymore because it’s just not needed. Roll a CD through the pull and it’s done.

And yes you can walk in to heroics in Cata once you hit 85. If you ran dungeons during your leveling up and didn’t quest the entire time you will have the gear to hit heroics running. How do I know this? That’s what I did! Also, you can completely bypass the Dungeon Finder and simply walk in to heroics to ignore the whole ilvl restriction system.

What you’re failing to miss is the fact that heroics in WoTLK were somewhat challenging at the start because of gear, not as challenging as Cata because you didn’t have healers re-learning mechanics in the process, but it wasn’t a simple cake walk either. The cake walk happened about 3 months in to the expansion, much like you’ll probably see here with the nerfs that they keep rolling out.

Nowhere did I say Cata was easier, I simply stated you’ll see it getting nerfed to be as easy as WoTLK and that it’s slowly going that way as you progress in to gear. You can pretty much guarantee that by the end of Cata we will be in the same position as the end of WoTLK when it comes to heroics.

4638

I think the philosophy of gamers within WoW is so disparate that jamming them into a group is trouble.

I’m a casual gamer, who plays games to relax. There are power gamers who feel your taking 5 seconds to admire the scenery is some sort of grievous trespass.

I can understand people’s frustrations with tanks who don’t tank ie they are actually playing DPS. But when it’s a question of managing everyone’s screw up, or being insufficiently geared to hold aggro, then it stops being fun. I’ve given up queuing as a tank in Cata. I’m just going run through all the single-player PvE content and then I’m off WoW again - which is perhaps how some of us really should be playing this.

4639

Well fuck, Brian, I know you love to post endlessly but if that’s your point can I ask you to go back and read the thread where we discussed all this in depth already?

Fine. When you make statements like that it’s obvious we’re not going to be on the same wavelength. We may not be taking polar opposite viewpoints but I’m not really interested in a discussion of the game where everything is reduced to such broad strokes.

And yes you can walk in to heroics in Cata once you hit 85. If you ran dungeons during your leveling up and didn’t quest the entire time you will have the gear to hit heroics running. How do I know this? That’s what I did! Also, you can completely bypass the Dungeon Finder and simply walk in to heroics to ignore the whole ilvl restriction system.

See, I find this interesting. Firstly, if you quest the entire time you end up with better gear than what you can get from the <85 instances, because the questlines provide well itemised ilvl 333 stuff, i.e. level 85 instance gear. It won’t be enough to get you into the heroics but it’s a start.

Secondly, if you’ve spent your time running dungeons, you’re already doing what everyone wants you to do in preparation for running heroics. “Ran dungeons, got the gear to get into heroics, tanking is a piece of piss, DPS is facerolling” = you’re clearly not the kind of person we’re discussing.

Finally, avoiding the Dungeon Finder is irrelevant. LFD is what’s being debated - you being able to talk people into joining you isn’t.

What you’re failing to miss is the fact that heroics in WoTLK were somewhat challenging at the start because of gear

(failing to miss?) Of course, but nowhere near this level. The mechanics were less involved. The trash was less painful. The CC requirement didn’t exist. AOE was far more powerful. And, as you say, healing mechanics were much much easier, and mana wasn’t an issue for pretty much anyone.

4640

To add more fuel to the fire…

Before we over-geared the content, groups I was in wiped to Loken in H-HoL and the Brann event in H-HoS more than any heroic boss in Cata thus far. The snake boss in H-Gundrak was no picnic either.

That’s not to say that Cata heroics are, as a whole, easier than Wrath’s, but people seem to have rose-coloured glasses about the difficulty of WotLK 5-mans before we were all wearing ilvl 232+ epics. LFD groups are wiping now mainly because a) players are not yet familiar with the various fight mechanics and b) they’re only barely meeting the gear requirements these encounters are tuned for. As several people in this thread have said, both of those problems will likely disappear in a month, if not sooner.

In other news, a few guildies and I banded together to start working on Glory of the Cataclysm Hero. Most of the achievements have been fairly straight-forward so far except for the last boss in Lost City. That achievement is going to take us awhile, I think. :(