5521

Tankero, you don’t have a clue, please stop spreading it everywhere.

Firstly ferals do benefit from AP. In fact AP is one of the major mechanisms by which AGI increases feral dps.

Secondly there is a choice between AP and AGI (leg “enchants”) and the AP + crit is more valuable than the AGI + Stam (since the stam is a wasted stat in dps terms). You’re actually leading people to make bad decisions.

Thirdly, are you seriously saying you beat 24k dps in 5 mans in non gimmick fights?

5522

I’ll spread it all over the toast if I want to, you witless baboob.

ATTACK POWER, as a stat on items, is GONE. Besides, 1 point in agility is converted into 2 Attack Power, aside from also increasing crit rating as well as dodge, and being subject to talents/buffs that increase Agility by a percentage. As for the leg armor, after talents/buffs, the Agility-based enhancement yields 183.43 AP, about 85 Crit rating AND stamina. Given the fact that most raid bosses have raid-wide damage mechanics, Stamina actually ensures that those mechanics are easier to deal with by giving healers a wider buffer.

Really, if you’re going to bring that l33t, poopsocking shit in here, you might as well try to be relevant, right, or not so pedantically offensive. Choose one.

5523

ATTACK POWER, as a stat on items, is GONE.

Yes indeed, so why did you make the incorrect statement below to start this entire discussion?

If you have a choice between 10 agility and 100 attack power, take agility.

5524

Umm, 55 agility does not give 183.43 AP and 85 crit rating.

I now see how you did 25k dps in 5 mans. You did 13k and decided that equalled 25k :)

5525

Exactly. 15k dps is definitely good enough to go raiding and have fun. Hell, my elemental shaman does 15k. But I can’t get into any of the top-tier raiding guilds on my server as DPS; the other classes at the top-tier are way outperforming me.

Healing can’t be ranked as easily as dps, (unless you stack healers based on hps, which is stupid) but there was a while there where a lot of resto shaman in the top tier guilds were being benched. I dunno if the latest patch fixed that.

BTW… when I said that we’re not competitive for “progression raiding”, I should have said “we’re not competitive in the top-tier”. In a certain sense, that doesn’t matter for most players. But it kinda does matter for all players; you’ll have to work quite a bit harder to put out decent dps than the other classes do. Of course, if you’re enjoying the game, it’s not “work”, it’s “fun”.

5526

It is worth noting though that Shamans are competitive or even top-DPS classes for normal mode raids. So if your guild is starting out, there’s absolutely no problem there whatsoever.

5527

This is true for everyone who is not a member of the the very small number of ultra elite guilds. Don’t listen to anyone who says that “class x is getting benched for class y” because that doesn’t happen for 99.9% of WoW players. For all but the most super-hardcore, every class has the potential (if played properly) to bring sufficient dps to raids.

5528

Do the conversion numbnuts. Here, evidence. As you will note, talented/buffed, agility yields 3.335 AP. 55 * 3.335 = 183.425. Please, though, go on making your arguments from high atop that pillar of shitbird authority you’re perched on.

That was to make a point, not to present a mathematical fact (as above).

5529

That link says that cats should use the AP/Crit leg enhancement, which contradicts your earlier suggestion that they should use the Agi/Stam one.

Also, if 1 Agi = 3.335 AP (with full raid buffs), then that also disproves your original claim that cats should choose 10 Agi over 100 AP.

5530

That was to make a point, not to present a mathematical fact (as above).

What exactly was the point you were making by incorrectly stating the relative value of agility vs. other stats?

It’s true that Agi is the #1 stat for cats (and by a significant margin at that), but it’s not true that it’s 10x better than any other stat, so why even make that comparison and potentially confuse people who don’t know otherwise?

5531

Grant the dude an iotum of hyperbole?

Good lord, you’re a bunch of pedants, and that says something, coming from me.

5532

The context of the Agi>AP statement was from the perspective of a levelling feral druid asking about what stat they should prioritize – Agi still has better returns at that stage, and every stage than AP, even if AP was available or not.

As far as the leg enchant is concerned, giving up a minimal amount of AP/crit over the survivability provided by 145 Stam is, I admit, a matter of personal preference, though one with (at best) minimal impact. It’s much like assuming a melee DPS will have 100% uptime on every boss, every attempt.

5533

Because the way that items in the game are itemized means that the higher AGI value will be on an item that will also have a better overall stats anyway?

5534

Exactly. Hell, according to stateofdps.com, and hence most of the WoW-related forums, frost mages are at the bottom of the pack. Yet our top damage dealer plays frost and puts out a stupidly high amount of damage. And Elemental shaman dps is fine, by which I mean it’s not great, but it’s not terrible. My guild just started heroic modes and while I’m rarely at the top of the charts, I’m usually not too far off. Being a few percent behind in damage isn’t really a big deal unless you’re at the very top of progression raiding, which we certainly are not.

5535

Well I just levelled a Rogue from 1-85 in the last month and every drop I got in Northrend had Attack Power on it if it was “Rogue gear” (ie every dagger, most rings and trinkets and half my leather).

Unless 4.06 changed things, which is entirely possible. I know that I had daggers whos stats consisted of +Stamina, Attack Power and Hit/Crit from level 70-80.

Edit: They did change the stats. I had this dagger: http://www.wowhead.com/item=37037 and it didn’t have Agility on it when I had it a month ago. It was Attack Power at the time.

5536

People should just read that linked thread and ignore you (and me). It’s a good thread. I posted in the hope of making enough fuss that people wouldn’t be confused by what you were saying (you know, stuff like “Feral druids don’t benefit at all from straight up attack power”). Oh and I’m afraid I just couldn’t let your bizzarre boast about your dps go.

In response to your “conversion”, you aren’t comparing like with like. The flaw in your reasoning here is that we are comparing equipped AGI against equipped AP - so it’s incorrect to include the AP multipliers when computing the value of equipped AGI in terms of equipped AP, which puts your numbers out by roughly 45%. (25% aggression 10% HotW 10% raidbuff).

On the leg enchant, in dps terms if we value AGI/AP/crit 2.8/1.0/0.8 (approximate conversion factors based on mew results on that thread) then the tanking enchant is worth 154 “AP” and the dps enchant is worth 234 “AP” (about 30 agility difference). If you do want to pick up stamina, it’s certainly a good place to do it. I certainly would understand making that choice. However people should make that choice because they are informed as to the tradeoffs. Not because they believe AGI is so much more valuable than AP that the tank enchant is better for their dps.

5537

But is it fun?

5538

Just to get away from my pissing contest with Tankero for a moment, I agree completely with this. The differences in what the classes are capable of are only a few percent, and are not going to be noticeable in the context of a typical raid guild. Play what you enjoy.

5539

Yeah, I think this is true. Mr. Nomad, if you’re still reading this thread, they’re right & I’m wrong. I had lost perspective.

Fun? FUN!?

We don’t have time for fun. Raiding is serious business.

5540

This is more or less what I was attempting to say, but much clearer. Thanks.