Well, that’s the thing. A lot of WoW’s big successes really ought to be low hanging fruit for any new MMO developer. A clean UI is one of the major things yet so many devs get it wrong.

No, that’s just crap and you know it. You’re putting in a SOME players, I never said that Vanguard or any other game was bad with SOME (minimum) number of players. What I’m saying is that without enough players to “experience the content” then a Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game is bad because there aren’t enough players to “experience the content”. I’m sorry but Vanguard does not have enough players to “experience the content”. If you have to wait around for hours because you can’t get a raid going because there aren’t enough (qualified) people on your server to make a raid, then there aren’t enough players “to experience the content”.

Jeezus, that ought to have been clear from what I said but I guess not. You have to have multiple players to make a multiplayer game work. That obvious enough?

There are enough players in Vanguard to experience the content. Hell, the guild I’m in does weekly events to key people for raids and get their flying mounts (which requires raiding). Then they do bi-weekly contests to find a boat in the middle of nowhere (you find it, you win it) and fishing contests for the server at large.

If you have to wait around for hours because you can’t get a raid going because there aren’t enough (qualified) people on your server to make a raid, then there aren’t enough players “to experience the content”.

I’ve had to wait around for over an hour to get a 5-man group in WoW. I’ve had to wait for hours because I can’t get a raid going for lack of (qualified) players.

By your logic, WoW fails and sucks.

Jeezus, that ought to have been clear from what I said but I guess not. You have to have multiple players to make a multiplayer game work. That obvious enough?

Like JM said, there’s a “critical” level where a game falls apart. Anything above that and you should judge the game based on its merits.

Yeah, you might have to go the extra mile to – gasp! – talk to people in underpopulated (non-WoW) MMOs if you want to accomplish things. The culture of single-serving friends WoW propagates thanks to things like the Dungeon Finder doesn’t make it any “better.” It just means you can be an antisocial loner, or a jackass troll, or a terrible player who is loathed on your server, and suffer no consequences. And, honestly, that design is fine and works well, as evidenced by the game’s popularity.

That said, you’re a fool if you think WoW is a great example of population determining quality. Population is utterly meaningless in the current state of WoW, which is currently sit-in-Stormwind-and-troll-trade-chat-while-waiting-in-LFD. WoW’s community by and large is godawful and its design has encouraged that at almost every opportunity.

Go start a new character and tell me how many people you encounter past your starter zone. It’s hardly more than you’ll see in Vanguard.

lol. You said it. Apart from WoW, nothing’s ever held my attention, and companies have had years to catch up.

WoW makes that stuff look like low hanging fruit in the same way that Tiger Woods makes golfing look easy. The amount of work spent on the WoW UI and its customizability and techniques to prevent automation is HUGE. I’d love to have a peek at the tools they developed to create, test, finetune and debug all their quests, encounters and scripted content. The amount of content and the level of detail and polish in any given zone is staggering. And so on and so on.

With a single piece of ‘low-hanging fruit’ from WoW you could build an entire AAA blockbuster.

Well, perhaps. It’s no surprise that some of the best UI elements have been incorporated from user mods so I guess there’s plenty that can still be done without those tools.

WoWs popularity was much more about timing. They happen to hit right at a time where broadband was becoming readily available to a wide group of people. Most people were still on dialup when I started playing EQ, that was a huge limiting factor market wise.

Blizzard sort of hit a perfect storm timing wise. The people that did play EQ at the time, had been playing it for years and were looking for something a bit easier, and a bit less time intensive. EQ was a job, WoW you can play in short bursts and get something done. In that respect, Blizzards design was right on the money.

In my opinion, EQ was a much better game though. That’s just how it hit me. The first couple of years of EQ, before sony got ahold of it and ruined the first person rendering graphics, was the single most immersive game I’ve ever played, and still is to this day.f

In EQ the world was dangerous, and the punishment for dying was severe. It made the game exciting, because you really felt you had something tangible to lose. All the MMO-lite games that are out today are all well and good, but there is no fear, no excitement. There’s a reason for that. When was the last time you were scared in WoW? I’m guessing never.

As far as mass appeal goes, pretty much everything from food to music has proven that what the largest majority of people like does not equate to depth or quality, it equates to a lowest common denominator.

The player base at large doesn’t understand the psychology of gaming. They think they want things easy and handed to them, but don’t seem to understand without some level of difficulty and risk, there really isn’t much of a reward.

/shrug. Nothing will ever beat the fear of going down into lower guk, before there was even a map of it on the net, and the very real possibility of dying and never being able to recover your gear. Let me tell you, you were AWAKE during that run. Modern MMOs are a snoozefest where wiping is nothing but a minor inconvenience.

Other than the social aspects, MMOs are mostly very boring, except for PvP lol.

Every generation thinks that whatever had the biggest impact on them personally is the best. It applies to music, movies, games, etc.

QFT.

Ultrazen you’re making the mistake of taking the things that you value and insisting that they’re the only valuable things. You (and most people in this thread) are making huge generalizations. You start out by making subjective judgments then immediately discard them for broad pronouncements.

Look, it’s completely absurd to suggest that any subjective judgement about these games can be proven but that’s what arguing on the internet is all about: insisting that the subjective is objective and that the other guy is a moron.

I’m finding it particularly annoying in this thread though.

But from my personal perspective, what I like about WoW is that it has a wide variety of activities in a fairly wide band of difficulty ranges. Dungeons and Raiding and PvP can be extremely challenging (though, admittedly, not very scary) while fishing or archaeology can be very simple and questing generally falls somewhere in the middle.

Frankly I like logging on, getting a PUG in the Dungeon Finder, and spending the next 30 minutes healing in pretty much the exact same way I always heal a pug. It’s relaxing and fun and I’m perfectly happy not to have to worry that the boss monster is going to irrevocably destroy the Sword of a Thousand Poopsocks I spent 80 hundred hours grinding. (Derp.)

But that’s just me.

Because it’s subjective.

What is the better/optimal example of quality MMO crafting that you are obviousy referring to?

Is it WoW? I thought we were bitching about WoW in this thread.

It is very subjective - coming out of UO, where dying meant losing all of your gear more times than not and where it came out of nowhere due to pkiller attack, EQ was an easy PvE game. It lacked the visceral feel of UO and the depth of the circa-1999 solo CRPGs (going from Planescape: Torment to Everquest didn’t work very well for me). That was my subjective experience at the time. It’s fair to say that WoW is a much easier and simpler game than either UO or EQ at that time, but today it works for me.

I think a lot of the more recent “blockbuster” MMOs have failed because they made two critical mistakes. First and foremost, do not release a game that will only reach its full potential in a future patch. It doesn’t matter if your game is fantastic and bug-free in v1.2, by then all the former WoW players are back in Azeroth. Second, focus on the PvE content. PvP-centric games fail for a simple reason – people suck. They will take the path of least resistance to get ahead and exploit whatever they can to do so. They fight to win, not win to fight, which means that a few people will get ahead and the rest will be stuck looking for something to do. I mean, I loved old UO but I also understood why it had to go. That kind of game will never have more than a niche in the market, like Eve Online carved out for itself. I hated what OSI did to the game I loved, but their subscription rates soared.

Designers seem to be learning these lessons though, which is why Rift is doing well compared to Warhammer Online and Age of Conan.

UO was the first MMO I played and at the time I was thrilled and amazed at it for about a week.

Then I got pked.

To this very day it absolutely stuns me that they made such pking such a fundamental part of the game. Did Shamino routinely kill Iolo or the Avatar in the other Ultima games? Did I miss that part?

It was such a bizarre and uncharacteristic idea for the series that it really ruined the game for me. I quit after only about a month because I simply didn’t feel like being the brunt of somebody else’s joke.

I suppose they made PvE worlds later but it really took Wow to do it in a way that lots of people actually enjoyed.

[EDIT]

Arnold Hendrick, genius designer of Darklands, has a lot to say about the problems of early MMO failure especially when the MMOs “eat their babies” by making new players into the victims of the slightly more established players.

That’s strangely hostile. There’s companies making MMOs with great ideas - far better than WoW - who get the execution horribly wrong by ignoring the things we’ve mentioned and turning people off by the bucketload. WoW is what it is, a hugely polished and accomplished game that’s pretty much reached the end of its natural life (or at the very least, isn’t going to improve) where everyone’s mined whatever entertainment they’re going to get out of it. It’s far from perfect but no-one can seem to make something of comparable quality.

RIFT came close in terms of polish. It also played like a future iteration of WoW rather than an imaginative new game.

Well my guess is that the people running the original Cata Raids for the first time since the nerf, leveling up their Archaeology, and working on Firelands dailies would probably disagree with you.

But that’s probably only several million people so don’t let that influence your thinking too much.

;)

You can blame Raph Koster for that. His vision for Ultima Online was complete freedom of action, where player justice would keep the pkillers and thieves in check. The reality was completely different of course - for the first nine months pkillers and general anarchy reigned supreme, with player response completely ineffectual (though fun to do at times). The company had to step in, first with harsh penalties for pkilling and eventually with a separate mirror world where pkilling and theft were not allowed. It was fascinating though, once you separated yourself from the Ultima lore and took it as it was.

No, I said that WoW’s insanely larger subscriber base clearly indicates which type of game the market prefers.

To those of you complaining that WoW is just too easy, and EQ was better because it was harder and had consequences, then I would like to cordially invite you to remove your head from your asses and take note that this is the way that the entire gaming industry has been moving for the last decade, and – since it’s not Blizzard’s fault – such complaints don’t really need to be in this thread.

Just go play Vanguard. Someone else upthread even argued that low population is not a negative, so I’m sure things will be great for you.

I don’t expect the entire 11m people (or however many it is now) to up and quit at the same time, it’s just that I’m seeing the same thing across many forums and with my own server. People are just reaching that point where it doesn’t matter what “new” content is put in game, it’s still the same old. It’s anecdotal so may be completely wrong, and in the context of my point about looking for alternatives / better games isn’t that important a point.

Also if you’re enjoying levelling Archaeology after the first day or so, you’re broken. FACT!

Ok you got me on that one. I got my Arch from 400 to 425 last night so that I could unlock the Arch dailies in the dungeons.

Of course, I neglected to investigate ahead of time so I didn’t realize that unlocking those dailies gives you a crummy buff that’s usually completely unnecessary and requires an Arch key. Lame.

But in general I’m still getting a lot of enjoyment from Wow even though it really hasn’t changed much in years. If anything I’m enjoying it more now than I used to because a) I started a healer and b) I finally got to the point where I was actually improving my gameplay after five years of on and off subs in which certain parts of the class mechanics never really clicked for me.

For a lot of us, JM, a game design that forces grouping is a bad design feature. We find that kind of game less enjoyable.