World of Warcraft: Shadowlands

Yeah, I am not understanding this criticism. WoW forces vets to play through the expansion content in the same way (I assume) FFXIV forces vets to play through its expansion content. If I started WoW today, I’d still have to play through the content in the same way I am playing through FFXIV as a new player. There are differences in how the content is played (and what matters) but I am not seeing an overall difference in how leveling works for new players.

With that being said, the end game in WoW (for me) is raiding and all of the treadmill matters for raiders. When that treadmill becomes uninteresting, we stop raiding.

Keep in mind that HRose predicted that WoW was dying more than 10 years ago in his blog. He’s not an unbiased source. He needs it to crash and burn so he can be proven right all these years later. Never mind the fact that WoW is probably one of the most lucrative games ever made. I bet their revenue since 2004 is near $20 billion.

That’s not true at all from my recent experience starting up on a new server for Shadowlands . I didn’t play through all the content, all the expansions. I didn’t see Burning Crusade, Lich King, Pandaria, etc. I didn’t really see any of their dungeons. It’s pretty much turbo speed to catch me up to the current expansion, then play through that. Given how much content they have, I can understand why they want to fast track users to the current content, but still.

FF14 doesn’t work that way. A new player goes through the whole game, they see the story from start to finish and the content of the previous expansions remains integrated and part of the experience, not deprecated like it is in WoW.

Yes, the current WoW leveling experience is that you get from 1 to max by playing through the previous expansion and then the current expansion. After you do that once, then you can level through any of the expansions you want on new characters.

They did this because the criticism in WoW was that new players needed to play through eightish expansions’ worth of completely dead content, populated only by a handful of other new players and alts, for 120 levels. And they kept buffing the leveling xp, so you’d be lucky to get halfway through a given expansion’s storyline before you were high enough level for the next one. And since there was no reason not to move on, you would just abandon that storyline in order to get to max level, because that’s where the focus always is.

As SadleyBradley points out, that is really not a fair take on the current content. Prior to Shadowlands, you actually had to do what you describe and it was a very long slog through content. Thankfully they squished the levels back to 60.

Edit: i will say that I will probably have little interest in slogging through FFXIV content on an alt, but, from what I understand, I won’t have to do that because I can use the same character in different jobs. That is a material difference and one that would make WoW a better expereince.

lol yep, I was about to say we’ve been reading these same posts for fifteen years

Heh, right now in WoW you can’t even change specs, let alone classes. Well, you can, but if you want to play well? Well that usually requires switching Covenants. And levelling up your renown to fill out your Soulbind tree. Oh, and you’ll probably need to craft a new Legendary too. You’re looking at 2-3 weeks (depending on how much grinding you do) to become fully effective in your new spec.

Oh and if you don’t like it? Well now your old Covenant considers you a “Betrayer.” So switching back to it is even harder than switching away from it.

Yeah, no thanks. I’m sticking with the specs I’ve got and if I stop liking them then I’ll just quit.

This is a double-edged sword. I am mostly focusing on MSQ and Job quests and I am like 10 levels above the MSQ. Also, I don’t unlock expansion quests until I’ve completed the previous story. I keep thinking “oh, I’m level 37, I unlock the next expansion in 13 levels” but that is so, so wrong.

This is where FFXIV made a really great decision. While the zones themselves might be sparely populated, the dungeons remain relevant forever. So yes, FFXIV makes you play through 80 levels of content, but that content is A) all tied to a main story and B) not dead.

FFXIV strives hard for “journey over destination”. WoW ended up being ‘race to endgame’ (I’m not entirely sure that was their intent/design, but how it ended up).

Can you solo the dungeons?

This is an accurate statement. Also, because you can level all jobs to max level, you are your own alt.

Might need someone else to confirm, but I think generally the answer is ‘no’. You get scaled back to an appropriate level (ie., if you run a level 20 dungeon, you have the skill set you had at level 20). The reason this isn’t a big deal though is that all dungeons are in the “Dailies” rotation list, and it is worthwhile to do daily dungeons regardless of level. So even though you’re in a level 20 dungeon and there may not be a ton of level 20 players around, the actual pool for groups is everyone on the server.

Yes, you’ll still wait for 15min or so as a DPS but you WILL get a group.

Anyone else enjoying the new raid bosses? Painsmith was a lot of fun on Normal but haven’t tried Heroic mode yet. I might be biased as I didn’t get stuck with chains at all so probably got lucky. Haven’t run into one yet that I really dislike, like the Council fight in Nathria (though the dancing intermission was a nice touch) or Sludgefist with the annoying chain mechanic.

I’m not in a raid team. :(

I won’t see these bosses outside of LFR until Neall restarts his Fun Runs.

We don’t have a guild, but my wife and I had our first run at LFR last night.

The first three didn’t seem too bad compares to the first wing of Nathria. Having Anima powers is pretty fun.

Even if it’s supposed to be funny, can you please avoid lying on my count?


WoW is not dying and I’ve been its strong supporter since beta (and there’s a thread where I say I was enjoying the game just a few months ago). A few posts above it’s still me saying WoW is technically superior to FF14, so there’s no reason why WoW couldn’t dominate for another 10 years. Because it’s still strong and there’s no reason, even in 2021, to call for its death.

The reason of its slow decline, that is far from a “death”, is due to poor direction, that still cannot erode fast enough the strong foundation the game was built on (and also the primary reason why WoW Classic does so well, since it cannot be all nostalgia).

Yes, overlevelling is a serious design problem.

There’s a way to manually fix it, if you want. I went through the main game always at the correct level, I simply switched classes wherever needed. You get past the right level, you switch to a class you left behind, and keep catching up. I kept two classes in sync through all the main game.

(the minor caveat is that you cannot use the main quest to catch-up, since the main quest has hardcoded lower level limit. So for example you are level 18, doing a level 18 MQ, you might want to switch to your level 17 healer to catch up, but you cannot complete the quest, because it requires at least 18. What you CAN do, though, is grabbing or completing quests with the proper level, AND then doing the killing with your lower level class. As long you accept and deliver quests at the proper level, you can do the actual tasks within the quest while playing an under-leveled class. So this also helps for catching up.)

It was also a boon in dungeons. I was using DPS doing quests, and then switch to healer whenever I had to hit a dungeon since queues are much shorter for healers and much longer for DPS. And since in dungeons you get tons of experience, you never over-level because everything else outside dungeons you do with a different class.

And in the case you are a completist and ALSO want to do side quests and everything at the proper level (I’ve also done almost all the side quests, never over leveled), you can use more than two classes.

It’s quite great because I needed two for the main game, and then Heavensward lets you unlock new classes right at the cap. So you never really have to grind anything. If you brought two classes in sync at the cap, then Heavensward unlocks another two (if I remember correctly?) now you have four, ready to go. That means every level you have four level-pools worth of content to do before overleveling.

(there’s TONS of content that unlocks between main game and Heavensward, so if you start playing all the stuff, and then go to Heavensward, you’d be already at least halfway to the new level cap before you even begin the expansion. And that’s why you can use the side-classes to expand that content horizontally as far as you want without the risk of overleveling)

And it makes the game also more fun because switching classes keeps it fresher in gameplay.

(I played the game once up to level 35, being constantly massively overleveled, and it was SHIT. So when I restarted some time later I planned everything to never overlevel even a minor quest again)

The side quests, contrary to what most people say, integrate well into the story and are part of it. Even the FLAVOR dialogues you get outside the quests, by simply clicking on named NPCs provide interesting information.

Holy Shit.

At least FFXIV is good, and New World seems to be attracting an audience.

The first five bosses aren’t bad at all on Normal. Then there’s a mechanics check at Painsmith, which isn’t bad once you know what to do and you’ve seen it in action. The added traps mechanic in Heroic PS has caused my group some trouble but I think we’ll get past him this weekend with some reps.