1641

Shit like this is why I’m glad I’m in a 10 man raiding guild with awesome people. We have pretty much zero issues with loot, other than the fact that people are often too polite. The only problem we’re having lately is that ICC is being stupidly stubborn with tank drops. Our tanks are sadly the worst geared in the guild. :(

1642

Damn right. It’s damn frustrating when you have been waiting for a certain piece to drop for weeks/months (generally a weapon or trinket), put in the time with the guild to get the boss on farm, and a new recruit gets the item due to the luck of the dice. DKP rewards people who show up consistantly and have been around for a while by giving them priority on loot

Also, it is 10x more frustrating to bring in someone new to the guild, have them get gear over senior, good, reliable players, then leave in less than a month because they want to go to another guild with a better progression rate.

If you look at most high end guilds, the top 10-20 on each server, most use a dkp system and have rules in place that guarantee new recruits won’t get squat for 2-4 weeks unless no established raider needs it.

But eh, in the end it doesn’t matter to me. I’m a pally tank rolling against a feral druid. Times are good.

1643

My guild (casual for the most part) has used /random for progression and alt runs for a long time with a bunch of caveats. New members/toon switchers have restrictions on when/how they can roll (basically a month usually) as well as Mainspec/offspec etc. etc… It was an alt run with “pugs” so its a /random roll.

What really gets me about this situation is the drama involved with this guy since he left the guild, basically to be more casual (no scheduled raiding I guess) and supposedly because he didn’t get along with some people’s attitudes. Its hard to be nice to him at this point. “Oh, he wants help and is frustrated”…but don’t get too critical? The guy ain’t dumb, he’s just lazy learning about his new alt, something many seem to be these days if pugs are any indication.

I miss DKP and I don’t. I remember a ton of people being pissed off in MC days (different guild) because they never won anything against the folks with a ton of banked DKP. Nevermind that those were the people who showed up every week and many who because of bad loot drops, hadn’t won much early on. I got tired of feeling guilty because I had a ton of “awesome gear” because of luck and you know, working for it.

I had a guy complain to me for an hour once about how some of the raid leaders had “2+ geared out toons! They’re greedy and always getting raid spots!”. Well yeah, they play a lot and they lead the raids since others don’t want to/cant. This was a guy who would play at odd hours, couldnt or didnt want to raid much and would at times disappear to another server or RL for a month or more. That lead to an interesting discussion about his romance life with his girlfriend… oye. TMI there.

1644

That’s why my raid uses zero-sum dkp. A new person starts at zero; if some regulars have gotten several things, they could be in negative numbers. The new person has a fair chance to get one item. As long as the system starts fresh with each tier, it has few problems.

1645

I agree that a well-run loot council or discussion between friends is pretty great. That worked well for my group of real life friends through Karazhan in BC and 10 man raiding in WotLK until it fell apart due to people quitting. We even /random’ed when we felt that a piece could help multiple people equally and had roughly equal time/loot received so far.

Funny that MC was brought up as I think a lot of people got turned off on DKP at that time. MC raiding went on for so long in Classic that people were able to amass huge DKP accounts, the systems weren’t balanced as well as to not let people run up huge positive numbers, zero DKP wasn’t as common, and some guilds even brought those positive balances over to BWL.

1646

There are about a nonillion forms of DKP, and not all of them are the suck.

Regardless, the point of DKP is to be fair to the people who show up regularly, not to the people who show up once in a blue moon and expect gear for showing up.

1647

Jeff and I have been discussing new loot systems to try to get a more balanced distribution of gear, but one of the sticking points is how to reward those who are PUGged in and not eligible for gear.

My suggestion so far is that if no gear comes up that our regulars don’t want and isn’t good for the PUG (assuming they did their job right) to throw them an Abyss Crystal or something comparable as a thank you.

1648

Any time we’ve had to PuG spots in our 10man raids, we let them roll just like everyone else. If we’re having to get someone outside the guild to fill in so the raid can happen, we figure it’s fair to let them have a shot at gear.

1649

Why shouldnt you have a chance at gear if you show up and make a raid possible? For whatever reason you needed them for the raid that day and their being there made that raid possible.

1650

In the long-run case, from what I can tell DKP is basically “if you always show up, you always get first crack at the loot regardless of everyone else’s gear status, and less reliable raiders will never catch up with you.” Which is a hilariously accurate summary of WOW’s incentive system.

1651

Not sure what’s wrong with that per-se; part of the purpose of DKP is meant to incentivize reliability and participation.

1652

That’d be accurate, if getting loot didn’t cost you DKP, and you could just keep showing up and getting first dibs on loot forever.

I’m sure it’s possible to have shitty DKP systems. It’s also possible to have non-shitty DKP systems.

1653

There’s plenty of ways to make it less painful, but over the long run you get an iron distribution between time spent and loot acquired. It’s basically a currency system where everyone earns the exact same hourly wage, and bids on the exact same resources, with no possible productivity differences, so it’s just hours input = outputs. Which is what WoW is all about!

1654

Again, you’re assuming various things, including:

-No bonus for progression vs farm, the patience to wipe vs leaving early.
-No penalty for egregiously bad play (FIFTY DKP MINUS).
-Flat rates for items.

But even if we assume the truth of what you say. So what? Yes, people who put in more time in the Guild’s raids should have an edge over people who don’t show up but once in a blue moon, if only because the Guild’s success will rise more with their being geared up.

1655

My guild downed 10 man Lich King tonight. We did 8 hours of attempts this week.

Pretty neat fight. It is a bit tedious working on the final phase of a fairly long fight, where errors in earlier phases can still doom you.

1656

Got something to show you guys! Clicky Click.

That’s the Saurfang parse for tonight. Halix pulled 5.4k. Spheria (our biggest problem child) added over a thousand DPS in a week. Cirela - once our most reliable DPS - is now at the back of the pack. And this was without the buff.

Sadly I couldn’t be there - my PC melted down today. I followed the parses though; had a big grin on my face when I saw that one.

My little raid is almost all grown up!

1657

Your rogue sucks.
He should be top dps on that fight since ranged also handles blood beasts.
Usually on that fight it’s shammy and me (rogue) fighting for top dps.

Most other bosses it’s shadowpriest + hunters before us though.

Only excuse would be if he has less gear than the rest (especially weapons and trinkets).

1658

As the ever-charming intruder so delicately put it, that is pretty low for a boss that’s essentially a melee target dummy. I don’t know enough about rogues to say whether her (his?) gems and such are correct, but that 213 weapon is probably hurting quite a bit.

1659

Ok I was in a bad mood this morning sorry.

Here is the problems of the rogue:

  1. Gems

She should either go full Armor Penetration or full Attack Power
AGI is less than AP. Armor Pen is the new hotness.
I advise her to go full Armor Pen since she has most gems with it already. Replace the AGI gems like now.

  1. OH sword

Really, really crappy.
Did she didn’t go to Uld?
-> OH from Iron Council (10 man) -> Fastest in game
ICC has even better (axes though)
-> OH from 10man Marrowgar
-> OH from 25man ship battle

MH sword is ok though I hope she didn’t buy the hilt.
MH axe from 10 man ICC (Saurfang) and MH sword from ICC 25 (Saurfang) is equal.

  1. Trinket
    She has a kickass trinket (Skull) but the other one is really, really crappy
    Buy the one for 60 Frost emblems asap.

  2. Poisons
    Wtf instant?
    -> Deadly on OH
    -> Wound on MH

  3. Enchants

HER OH HAS NO ENCHANT!?!
I would put at least “Mongoose” on it. Maybe save Berserking for her hopefully soon to come upgrade!

Feet should be 24 AP instead of Icewalker (since she is over hit cap)
Icewalker was good but is useless now since everyone in decent gear is over hit now.

  1. Thrown (Ranged)

Should be the Frost emblems one (I think it’s pretty cheap with 25? emblems).

  1. Rotation

I see a “Garrote”?
Her rotation should be:

  • Tricks of the Trade on tank
  • 3 Sinister Strike for Slice and Dice
  • Adrenaline Rush
  • 5 Sinister Strikes -> Rupture
  • 5 Sinister Strikes -> Envenom
  • 5 Sinister Strikes -> Slice and Dice
  • When beasts are down -> Killing Spree
  • Next time when beasts are down -> Blade Fury

Keep this rotation + use Tricks of the Trade on tanks / melee dps

If she flasks up and eats her fishy she should do way better than that on Saurfang.

Here is my rogue for comparisons doing close to 8k (with Bloodlust but no flasks / fishies) last Saurfang:

1660

intruder: Rogue’s OH sucks because he just recently switched to sword spec. He was daggers for the longest time, til he got a battered hilt drop. We know his OH sucks; we’re killing Marrowgar every instance reset but we’re just not getting the axe to drop. :(

We do have melee switching over to blood beasts in this case. Because of how our raid was performing, we actually tank the blood beasts. This allows all DPS to move onto them and down them quickly. Before that we were barely able to drop both blood beasts before the next set spawned. With our current setup we drop the blood beasts quickly and are having much more success. The blood power building isn’t an issue for us, as healing is probably the area our raid is strongest.