WoW: Raid PvP

I played in my first sustained Raid PvP group today, mostly in the Tarren Mill/Southshore area and a bit in the Hammerfall area (I was on the Alliance side). It was also the first time with the Honor Kill system in place. Some things I noticed…

There is poor strategy and teamwork. Our group varied between 15 and 30 players, and most of the play was a disorganized mess. The problems…

Many of the players are still in the Town Raid mindset, where you kill town guards. Several of the players attacked guards or aggroed guards, while others were telling them to stop doing that. There was a tendency to attack the guards, have problems against the guards, fall back to Southshore, and repeat the process, killing the occasional Horde who ventured too near.

The players clustered together too much. In a PvP environment rather than a Town Raid, its more effective to use scouts, spread out, and then call the group over once a Horde presence is detected. As an extra level of organization, the Scout calls out a number which is the estimated number of players needed to deal with the Horde. That way the other players remain ready to respond to other scout requests.

I wonder what’s the best way to give directions to the Horde location… is it to use Cosmos coordinates or landmarks?

To aid this, WoW could code it so that a scout is given his own waypoint, so that players could easily find the spot of the request.

Since HKs aren’t attained if the slain is gray to you, its a bad idea to be level 60. If your raid group kills 10 level 60s, 10 level 50s, 10 level 40s, and 10 level 30s, a level 60 gets 10 HKs, a level 50 20, a level 40 30, and a level 30 40. Am I missing something or is this the way it works? The sweet spot is maybe level 40-45 right now, with that number rising as the servers age and the average level of the combatants rises.

Given the poor play of the group, I didn’t have a lot of fun. I, as a Level 48, obtained only about 30 HKs over 2 hours of play.

Something noted during play that I’ve noticed before is that the Horde seems to be much higher level on average than the Alliance who are fighting them. Our Raid group had a mix of players, mostly between level 40 and 60 with a few in the 30s. The majority of Horde were ?? to me, which as a 48 means they are likely to be level 60.

What have you guys experienced with Raid PvP?

My first raid yesterday was about 40 Alliance attacking Tarren Mill. It was pretty much what was described above – people who had never really raided before, attacking guards and generally not knowing what to do. Add in the 2000-4000 latency that was happening, and it was a mess.

After that, however, I left Tarren Mill with a group of about 20 L60s, mostly from the same guild, and we rode north and infiltrated the Undercity through the sewers. These guys knew what they were doing, and we managed to get much farther than I thought you could without aggroing any guards. It wasn’t very crowded, and we spent about 15 minutes successfully picking off small groups of Horde before word got out and they could get enough L60s downstairs to fight us. I ended the hour with about 70 HKs. It was hella fun.

In most of the raids I’ve been a part of, I’ve found there are some initial moments of surprise where you can overwhelm the enemy, but before long, word gets out and L60s swoop in to the rescue. There are usually one or two silly L30s who try to fight, but by and large, lower levels know better and stay out of the fight, while most of the guys who rush to defense are higher level characters. So it wouldn’t surprise me that most of the Horde would be high level.

Overall, I’d expect there to be some awkwardness in the beginning. Maybe it’s because I’m on a PvE server, but I wasn’t expecting much coordination out of the gate, especially when you lump in L30-40’s who probably have never been in a raid before. I imagine it will get better over time, but there’s going to be a learning curve for people who haven’t done much PvP.

My only PvP with the Honor system so far was just hanging around Gadgetzan for about 1 1/2 hours today. Got in a group and just went at it with the alliance. We outnumbered them for awhile but then more came and it was pretty crazy with having the brutes jumping you too. Do a kill then run out of town while they chase you. I ended up with about 70 HK’s in that time. Had a good time.

I was in an all=stealth group the other night, ganking near Chillwind. It was pretty cool. We were like a bunch of Romulan Birds of Prey uncloaking around our targets.

BTW, I died yesterday at the hands of some Half Past Five guild member. Didn’t catch the name before I released though. He was one of several who attacked me.

Or like the Predators de-cloaking around Danny Glover on the spaceship at the end of Predator 2. Those guys rocked.

Heh, you have no idea. On one of my various alts, I’m in an all-female-avatar, all rogue guild. It’s not only cool to see them all decloak around their target, but to have them all be sexy-long-eared babes in tight leather pants…it’s like dying the way we all want to die.

Besides, you get a group of 10 level 60 rogues together, and they’ll always win. It doesn’t matter if you see one of them, the rest of them will Vanish, and then Cheap Shot you (stun for 4-5 seconds) continuously while the others beat the living crap out of you. The timing is an art, but it’s unbeatable.

Umm, a group of 5 mages will do even better. Just spam aoes, stealth wont help against that. We did some arena battles in our guild a few weeks ago. We had a team of 5 mages. No combination could beat them, and in most cases, none of them died.

Basically it was like this. If someone was ranged, like a hunter, they all would target him and arcane missle (or something else). So you have 5x AM hitting someone at once, and most range classes do not have that many HP and usually die with the 5 salvos. For melee, the most common one, pretty much the mages stood close and just all spammed Arcane explosions with thier manna shields on. Needless to say, AE x5 after a few seconds kills anyone, even if you have 4 on you at once.

Anyway my PvP experiences were not that good. Stormwind was assualted, and after about 15 mins of slide-show lag, and standing in the middle of the horde army spamming AoEs, I still wasn’t flagged for PvP.

Blizzard needs to figure out to how the handle 100 or more players in close proximity without lagging everyone to death. My instant cast spells took anywhere from 15seconds to a full minute to fire off.

Got a quick question about PvP in WoW. Is it true folks on different sides can’t communicate with each other? No /tells or spatial chatter?

If so, do you think that contributes to a better atmosphere than games in which trash talking and such are allowed?

Brian: It’s true. Horde and Alliance cannot communicate through in game mechanisms other than emotes. When a Horde says something aloud, all I see is gobbledygook, which is what their native tongue sounds like to me.

I believe Blizzard had originally planned to add language learning abilities to the game, but I semi-recently remember reading something about that’s been dropped.

Having played PvP games where you could communicate with your foes (Shadowbane) and those where you couldn’t (DAoC/WoW), I prefer the ability to communicate. I liked the friendly joshing you often got through honest competition. And it was really easy to /ignore the l33tspeakers. Besides, how is getting /spit on (which comes through just fine) any better than someone trash talking you?


Exactly. You can’t talk, but the emotes all work. So /spit, /laugh, or the sarcastic /kiss or /mourn work just fine as trash talk. /roar, /cheer, and /victory all work as well. Balut used to take off his clothes and /dance on the corpse of slain Horde.

I laugh mockingly at how wannabe PvPers can be in a “Town Guard” killing mindset. Zones, flags, honor systems…when is the real PvP coming?

BTW, I died yesterday at the hands of some Half Past Five guild member. Didn’t catch the name before I released though. He was one of several who attacked me.

That was a nasty shock at the end of my night. I thought we were done and next thing ya know there are some horde picking us off. But, thanks for the fun Mark (I didnt get the last blow on you, but I think Saturnik did)

I wonder what’s the best way to give directions to the Horde location… is it to use Cosmos coordinates or landmarks?

To aid this, WoW could code it so that a scout is given his own waypoint, so that players could easily find the spot of the request.

A raid can see the locations of everyone else in the raid on the map. I was scouting yesterday while we defended Ogrimarr and just called out “4 here” and people brought the map up, moused over the few dots that were out scouting, and came on over. There’s also the arrows on the minimap you can mouseover to see folks in your raid/group.

Yeah! Yeah! I’m a big fan of finding new and interesting emote combinations to insult my opponents with.

Recently, as an undead, I decided to add a nifty little emote to my cannibalize. The last thing my opponents see before releasing is …

Oinkfs is hungry for some food. Maybe Rywill has some … At which point I begin tearing chunks of flesh off of their corpses and shoving it into my mouth.

I know it has to irritate some of the players out there because I tend to get chased a lot after a few kills :)

Does anyone else have any good ones? I’m a fan of /crack at the beginning of combat, and /gloat is a fun one to mix it up at the end. If you’re got fun ones let me know. Figuring out which emote to apply after a kill has become a game in itself for me.

At one point I was stealthed on a hill above Chillwind, land I started moving around. It was hilarious. I kept bumping into invisible horde rogues. We had the place surrounded and didn’t even know it. There were like 7-8 rogues there. Everywhere I looked, another Horde rogue.

Alliance put together a stealth group of 10 rogues and rocked us not too long after.

There was also a lot of baiting going on. A tasty-looking mage would just sit on his horse looking vulnerable, and we’d attack and rogues and druids would uncloak and other Alliance would come running. It was fun.

I’m so pissed that I missed this. Good for Nik, though!