WOW & TBC ... Post-expansion blues

I’d be interested to know if any other WoW players/guilds have been facing these issues.

The single biggest problem my guild is facing is an over-abundance of DPS classes. We have mages, warlocks, rogues, and hunters sitting on their asses in Shattrath city with nothing to do and unable to get 5-man runs to get their keys.

Then when they do get their keys there are limited spots in the 10-man’s and what tends to happen is that the same 10-man group gets to go to Karazhan on a daily basis because of the difficulty of the instance and the requirement of class balance within that instance.

The net result is constant whispering between unhappy guild members and in some cases some members have given up and are rarely logging in to play their mains or not logging in anymore. I think we only have one or two active hunters left in our guild and that is out of a guild that has some 50 mains or so. The new instances are made in such a way that getting a successful PUG is very difficult and hours can be wasted on silly wipes and mistakes.

I really don’t know how we are going to get people through the 5-man heroic instances. Some of the epic 25-man’s require people to do this for attunement. I would hate to be in my guild leader’s shoes at this time with these sorts of issues facing our guild.

So the choice I face personally is do I continue to develop my warlock and grinding rep for a class that will be rarely needed or do I now start working on my priest who is currently level 60 ?

What I do know is that the Burning Crusade honeymoon is well and truly over - now the post-70 blues really begin.

Well, they could always leave the guild and form smaller guilds… something that I expected to happen anyway… Maybe there won’t be as much of a shortage of main tanks and primary healers from now on.

Arena > guild drama raid grind.

Not to sound caustic, but they need to get off their asses and take matters in to their own hands. If you have at least 3 members that are competent, you can add in 2 pugs and still do a run successfully. There are a lot of players that want to have groups hand fed to them, and if nobody has the motivation to start a second group, they’ll continue to sit around.

As far as what your guild can do about it — it sounds like there needs to be more of a fair handling on who gets to go on runs. If you have 5 of one class that wants to go, and player A has been 4 times, and player B hasn’t ever been, logic should dictate that you’d want to help player B out. Player A shouldn’t complain unless they’re greedy.

You misunderstand what most guilds/servers are like, at least in my experience. Yours may have been different.

My experience has been as follows. The situation above presents itself. I say, “Hey, does anyone want to run Dire Maul? Let’s go, it would be cool, or if you want something else, I’d probably be up for that too.”

Crickets chirping on guildchat, as the ten cool people who really form the nucleus of the guild are off doing an instance, and everyone else is waiting around for one of the ten cool people to drop out so they can go along on an instance.

Advertise to general, get 3 people who are interested, 1 of whom is coming right now, really, and never actually shows up, even after you get the 5th person. 2nd person states something stupid like, “Fux this no0bs!” and leaves, typically after wiping the group about halfway to the instance, as the group tries to save his sorry ass having run into a batch of mobs.

Proceed to log off and vow not to play WoW so much, since the bulk of the time at high levels involves sitting around waiting on things, rather than playing. Proceed to log on again in 5 hours and see if anything is going on.

I think you should rename this thread to “TBC blues for the 2% of the wow population who has already hit 70, done all the 5 mans, and is freaking out b/c they can’t get groups for content 98% of players havent seen and probably will never see”. Actually that’s too long.

I guess I should be not snarky but the Kharazan and raid zone concerns strike me as germain to only a tiny fraction of the player base.

However the OP does hit on a bigger issue which is germain to most players. On a lot of servers there don’t seem to be enough healers to support adequate grouping in general, which is a serious design flaw in WOW IMO. They’ve made healing too necessary yet also too un-fun to play, so there’s never enough supply of healers to do the really difficult instances. The recent changes to making it harder for healers to dispell negative effects, along with the nerf to down rank healing, just add to a fundamental problem.

In addition, both aggro management and crowd control are more difficult and more limited in WoW than in the comparable EQ games. I believe this reflects a design intention to have more “chaotic” and hence less predictable encounters. The downside to this design decision is that groups with less than optimal composition often cannot participate in all the content available. Tank aggro is an example – holding aggro in many TBC dungeons is VERY difficult for a wide range of reasons (mobs who interrupt/stun/mez the tank, mobs who dump aggro and charge, mobs who AOE, mobs who fear, random spawn add-ons during fights and so much more!). B/C of that, a vanilla “tank” is often perceived to be inadequate. Gordon has related some recent experiences of groups demanding not just a warrior of the right level but a “protection spec warrior only”. Some of this will alleviate as people learn the instances better but I feel that TBC has pegged the chaos level in 5 person instances a bit too high for the average group. I’d like to see some of the chaos reduced, some of the pressure on healers and tanks alleviated (not to a dumbed down level, just a reduction from the absurd TBC levels). I’m specifically thinking of Auchindon, which IMO has too much chaos for enjoyment.

Overall, I feel your pain in regard to the broader group issues. As to the woes of raiders, I shed no tears :0. The raid game is a special beast, and IMO impossible to fine tune to make all participants happy b/c too many of the desires and requirements are mutually incompatible. Which is reason #196 why I do not and will not raid :0.

My Blood Elf is only level 33 at this point and I still love TBC. PC GOTY, easily, even if it is only an expansion.

See, that is what would happen on my old Horde server: Most of the guild would be raiding Molten Core, or doing other stuff. Since there were 10 Warriors and 10 Shaman/Hunters already waiting to go in line, we were often left to our own devices.

We had strong enough personalities that we were able to motivate people to go do stuff. We formed “B” team raids, we went off and did Dire Maul, things like that. We would add in a couple of pugs, and if they were retarded, we’d kick them out.

We also would (and still do in our current guild) go help lower level characters get through instances, give out advice, play alts, things like that.

A lot of it has to do with personality. I come across at times as being bitchy on message boards (although I try to check my syntax to see why, and nowadays I mostly just shrug,) but in game I will try to bend myself over backwards to help other people out. I someone isn’t interested in being a team player, there’s usually a reason why they’re not picked to be on the “A” team.

Just noticed something in what Sharpe Said:

On a lot of servers there don’t seem to be enough healers to support adequate grouping in general, which is a serious design flaw in WOW IMO. They’ve made healing too necessary yet also too un-fun to play, so there’s never enough supply of healers to do the really difficult instances. The recent changes to making it harder for healers to dispell negative effects, along with the nerf to down rank healing, just add to a fundamental problem.

This is definitely not the case in my experience. Some of this has to do with the perception that Shadow Priests can’t heal (I have almost +700 to healing in my healing suit) combined with some people just giving up on their Priests without having actually played them post-BC.

Priests are still fun to play, I have no problem dispelling players at all (I never used decursive so it may be that’s why … but also my unit frames color a player’s name based on their debuff.)

They added new spells to help with healing and to make things more interesting as well.

Our guild is actually short on tanks rather than healers, we always have more healing than we need … and well we have feral druids so the tank thing really isn’t that much of a problem either

What a bunch of catassery.

99% of the time I just play with the same small group of people (3 total) I always play with and know in real life and we’re having a blast. If my hunter gets “nerfed” I probably won’t even realize it until I read some whiney ass post about the issue on some forum like this one.

I ran Shadow Labs last night with a shadow priest, 2 druids, a shaman, and me (hunter). We absolutely owned the place. It was sick. The other night I did Mana Tombs with a blood elf paladin, shaman, warrior, mage and we destroyed.

The holy trinity isn’t all that holy anymore.

The original post was talking about heroic mode. From what I hear you’re not getting away with nonstandard groups in heroic mode.

At least not without dropping 10-100’s of gold on pots before you head in…

You can’t compare Karazhan to the old MC/BWL raid progression. It is only a 10-man raid, so at least attempting it is no more outside the reach of non-raiders than UBRS was. Completing it will be more difficult, but UBRS became an issue too once they dropped the cap to 10. I can’t count the number of pugs I saw wipe on Drak, and their bodies will litter Karazhan too.

Healers do seem to be in even shorter supply, and I have seen a few reasons for this. Many priests are remaining Shadow to work on the many new rep grinds and mote grinding. People often still won’t take a Shadow priest on lower instances, but in the higher instances they are starting to hit the healing wall. Not enough mana, not big enough heals, so many groups are starting to exclude them unless there is room for a support person (VE & VT can be a nice bonus) or backup healer. For example, I respecced my priest to mostly healing spec (took the holy DPS talents for a little grinding) shortly after hitting 70, and she has 11,000 mana with good regen and healing bonuses. Our usual Shadow priest was one of the first in the guild to 70, but even with superior gear (1100 +heal to my 900) has only about 9k mana, less regen, and smaller heals. Heals cost him more too, since he has none of the talents to reduce mana costs. Overall, I would guess it is a 15 to 20% reduction in healing effectiveness, which makes the difference when a fight is close.

Another reason for few healers - healing vacations. I told the guild I wouldn’t be doing instances until I hit 70. After a year of staring at health bars in raids, as I was having way too much fun solo questing again. As more healers return to their healing spec, more should be around. Priests tend to level more slowly, too. We have eight or so raiding priests, and right now only two of us are 70. The rest are still 67-69 for the most part. Our paladin and druid ranks have also been ravaged by the DPS flu.

Pugs really get the short end of the stick due to the heavy healer demand, which amplifies the perception of a healer shortage. I never pugged much anyway, but in-guild healing demand is already enough to keep three of me busy. Simply no time to pug it.

Ideal guild size is now 25-30 people. If you had a half-competent guild leader, he would have seen that coming and started kicking the dregs of your guild before BC was released, to minimize drama. Unfortunately, now you’re guild’s just about twice as big as it needs to be, which means all those pissed off whispers will reach critical mass and your guild will splinter and implode. Oh, and the offshoot guild will suck and crumble in under a week due to shitty leadership.

I sure hope you kissed enough catass to be on their A-List. Based on your post, though, it sounds like you haven’t.

What has happened in my guild and several others is they’ve broken up and reformed into much smaller guilds. Still though, the problem is you need to do heroic instances to access the majority of the 25-man content, and to do those successfully you often need high-end gear, and Karazhan gear really helps. So you’re stuck doing 10-man instances with 25-30 members, so even if the guild is small enough to accomodate just the 25 required raiders, some people will feel left out.

I don’t know if there’s a fix. I simply stopped going to Karazhan because I think it blows, with the way they’ve done the trash mobs and the overall feel of the instance. 5-man heroics should eventually be doable anyway regardless of whether you’ve done Karazhan.

Note: I’m in a raiding guild but I got to join as a casual who raids occasionally since the majority of the guild are in-game friends. So I actually say no to going to Karazhan most of the time because I really think it sucks. YMMV if you end up actually liking the instance.

I find the same thing to be true. My guild hasn’t hit Kara yet, but getting guild groups for 5 mans sucks, and pugs usually end up with 3 warlocks. heh.

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