I’ve had countries at Red Panic not drop out before as well. I’ve also had countries drop out mid-month with no chance to launch a Satellite or do something to improve relations. It’s possible that there’s a percentage chance either way.

Aye, really would have liked to see that engine updated and used for a game like this.

I also didn’t find much joy in the larger ship battlefields because of that. The only way I made it workable for me was to turn the view (with Q and E keys) until I found the angle/camera view position that the game needed to let me move my guy where I wanted him to go.

I still don’t like the missions as much but for the most part I don’t even think of it too much anymore.

Well, the main full-price-buy sinking thing I’m reading is that it seems a bit too far ‘streamlined’ to the point where the on screen display is more a rough guide to what the game considers for combat. Almost like it’s showing you individual troops but the actual mechanics are like something from Panzer General - lots more like a puzzle game rather than straight tactical game.

The one thing I liked about SS was that there was a real sense that what you saw was what you got - I have no idea how granular the maps really were but it always gave the impression of playing fair with you. So if there was a loose brick poking out of a wall somewhere then that individual brick would stop a bullet, or a missing brick would let one through, you were in cover if it looked like you were in cover. After reading a bunch and watching a bunch of videos I still can’t say it’s really clear how stuff like that works in Xcom - there are shields? A full shield is cover regardless of what object you are behind? Except when it’s not and you can still get hit? I suppose I should just download the demo.

On the other hand, I found Silent Storm incredibly tedious to play, part because of the detail in the combat engine.

The demo doesn’t really represent the game well IMO.

The cover shields are a visual clue to the defensive bonus you’ll get if you stand there. So “full cover” doesn’t mean you can’t be hit, it just means you’re getting a larger defensive bonus than half cover or no cover at all.

As the game progresses other factors can come into play, for example suppressive fire from someone on your team can reduce the aim score of enemies.

There’s a skill you can get for one class of trooper that gives them a scaling defensive or offensive bonus depending on how many enemies they can see. There’s a skill that “paints” a target so as to give an aim bonus for anyone else who fires at the same enemy.

There’s a stance you can go into that doesn’t protect you from getting hit, but does make it impossible for enemies to score (more damaging) critical hits.

There’s a smoke grenade that gives anyone standing in it a defensive bonus.

The game gives you an offensive bonus if you’re above your target, and there are bonuses or minuses based on distance for various weapons. Etc etc.

Anyway, whenever you target an enemy you can get info as to all the pluses and minuses that go into your to-hit number.

When you can see your soldiers, and cant position them right, try turning the camera once and then back again - works for me every time.

It seems only two countries can drop out at any given time at once, no matter how many are at full panic.

Makese sense since otherwise a bad turn of terror site missions could ruin your game rather quickly.

@djotefsoup: The entire affair is much less “believable” than in Silent Storm though. The entire cover-shooter thing is one of the biggest failings of XCOM in my book.
Yes, it’s supposedly “easier” that way, but the actual implementation often has me clueless on which cover will provide the most protection, and due to the narrow-tube nature of nearly all maps, there often is hardly a relevant choice.
The aliens frequently will move into position and then successfully shoot you from the (seemingly) unlikeliest of places.

@Hugin: What made S2 so tedious to play (for some people) was mostly the resolition of enemy (and neutrals!) turns, though, wasn’t it?
The actual physics engine (pre PhysX etc.) made the game stutter when spectacular damage was being done, but generally worked fairly well.
Also, that was ten years ago, things could undoubtedly be implemented better today. Going back to an almost twenty year old game and actually SIMPLIFYING it is fairly embarrassing in my book.

@Razgon: The two-dropouts-max rule saved my game. I’ve got six remaining nations at maximum terror now. Thankfully …

Spoiler

… I’m enroute to the alien mothership


rezaf

That depends on the difficulty level I believe it is 1 easy, 2 normal, 3 classic, 4 impossible per month.

I don’t understand why this is so confusing. There’s no cover, half cover, full cover, and flanked, plus above or below. it’s obvious when an enemy is above or below you, it’s obvious when you’re flanked, and it’s obvious when you’re in full or half cover or on the wrong “side” of a cover object (red shields). The only ambiguity is that if you’re dealing with a roughly “diagonal” enemy you can’t know for certain if they’ll break to the good or bad side of the available cover, but that would be true in any cover system.

Honestly I feel like most of the people who complain about “impossible” or “improbable” hits or misses are just bad at statistics or full of confirmation bias. As someone who plays a lot of die-rolling dependent wargames, getting upset that I missed a 99 percent shot or whatever would never occur to me, shit like that happens constantly. In a game where you have 6 people firing multiple times each battle, and the percentages to hit are no finer grained than 1 percent increments out of 100, there’s going to be a tremendous amount of wacky outcomes, because the reliability of any “roll” is relatively low.

@Hugin: What made S2 so tedious to play (for some people) was mostly the resolition of enemy (and neutrals!) turns, though, wasn’t it?
The actual physics engine (pre PhysX etc.) made the game stutter when spectacular damage was being done, but generally worked fairly well.

I’m talking about the interaction between the possibilities built into the game engine and the play mechanics they designed to leverage them. I found the game fiddly and tedious to play. I find Laser Squad Nemesis, a game with a much simpler engine, fiddly and irritating to play as well.

Strategy gamers have a terrible tendency to think “complexity” is inherently good. I’m strongly of the belief it isn’t, necessarily. I think XCom:EU strikes a decent balance between tension associated with mutually exclusive decision making, tension associated with success/failure gates, and making the optimal choice at any given moment an interesting smallish-to-mediumish outcomes cloud with some entertainingly big outlier spikes (with the exception of cascading panic coupled with friendly fire, which I think spikes too hard on Classic, IMO)

Going back to an almost twenty year old game and actually SIMPLIFYING it is fairly embarrassing in my book.

Simplifying is awesome. If this game were the original X-Com with modern graphics I wouldn’t have bought it. People think Simplifying is taking the easy way out, or dumbing things down. They think simplifying is making things less. I think when a design is good that’s entirely untrue.

My problems with X-Com have almost nothing to do with the design level decisions, the combat systems, the cover, the trooper customization stuff, the single base, none of that, they’re mostly technical.

  1. The game is buggy, too buggy to make playing Ironman safe/fair. The interface will crap out under various circumstances, the save system is apparently bugged, those sorts of things.

  2. I think the way the camera handles object display/occlusion with architectural objects is poor, I don’t know if that’s a technical implementation that’s simply poor or bugginess. In short, anything with a roof is a pain to deal with, intersecting walls can be a pain, the camera doesn’t like dealing with map objects directly below it, etc.

  3. I feel like the game needs another polish pass in terms of the way the tutorial missions work, the way base management is explained to the player, conveying to the player how to manage global panic levels in particular, what objects are safe “trash” to sell, how projects (don’t) “spend” engineers and how various trooper abilities actually work.

I think XCom:EU strikes a decent balance between tension associated with mutually exclusive decision making, tension associated with success/failure gates, and making the optimal choice at any given moment an interesting smallish-to-mediumish outcomes cloud with some entertainingly big outlier spikes (with the exception of cascading panic coupled with friendly fire, which I think spikes too hard on Classic, IMO)

Nice dense sentence there, I haven’t even played the game but I’m persuaded.

I remember reading a great blog post by some (ex apple?) software engineer a while ago talking about the difference between ‘simple’ and ‘uncluttered’ that went into this with greater insight than I could hope for. But it strikes me that if a significant number of people are saying it’s too hard to even work out if you can be shot from somewhere or not, it’s been ‘uncluttered’ to the point where it’s obtuse again. I don’t think SS was particularly hardcore about this stuff either - it was dead simple! Things were pretty much exactly as they looked and if there was an object between point A and point B then it would stop a projectile. Or get destroyed depending on what it was made from (wood/metal/stone/etc) and how large a thing you hit it with.

That’s good simple - things are intuitively obvious and act as you might expect. Bad simple is “we’re just not going to tell you shit to avoid all that hard work that goes into sensibly presenting information”, which tends to result in people scratching their heads trying to work out WTF just happened.

I have to wonder, though, why is, supposedly, simplifying things so great when going WAY into the other direction has almost spawned a new genre.
Back when X-Com was release, you had games in which you could drive around in a car, you had games in which you could run around shooting things, you had games in which you could experience a (more or less deep) storyline. Then came GTA and rolled all those things into one package - endless possibilities at your fingertips.

All those years back, X-Com had already been a game with countless possibilities, way before GTA entered the scene.

Yet in GTA having lots of possibilities is great, while in X-Com it is only annoying and confusing and needs to be steamlined away?

Sorry, I fail to grasp that notion.

Simplification/steamlining aren’t INHERENTLY bad, but it’s easy to end up effectively taking away toys from the player, which is exactly what happened in XCOM.


rezaf

Even though there are 80 maps, because they are grouped into types or whatever, your odds of running into the same ones over and over are actually pretty high. I know a bunch cold now. I wish they had been able to make them somewhat more randomized, even if not fully randomly generated.

This mod is pretty interesting:

Nerfs satellites, makes all UFO mission interceptable (!), other overall balance tweaks.

That analogy doesn’t make sense to me. Silent Storm’s complexity and GTA’s complexity are of two different kinds. Silent Storm has a complex system. GTA has a complex design. GTA’s systems – driving, running, and shooting – all remained very simplistic.

GTA threw more toys into the sandbox for you to play with, but when you ask for a more granular combat simulation like Silent Storm, what you’ve got is the one toy… just with a lot more accessories.

Provided that each mode of play is fun on its own, most gamers reasonably want more design complexity. And the strategic layer is of that kind – you get to do different things within the game, get a nice change of pace.

Complicating a single system though, would be like making you manually shift gears while driving a car in GTA. There’s a real tedium cost associated with this sort of system complexity, one that’s less of a problem with design complexity – if I don’t like a system in GTA, I can minimize my time interacting with it. You can’t avoid a super fiddly combat system though.

Of course, some people have different ideas about what’s tedious. I really didn’t like what Civ 5 did with some of the fiddly bits from Civ 4, for instance.

Of the elements that XCOM: EU has streamlined away, what do you miss?

Well, sure, you CAN put it that way.
What I was going at was that, in X-Com, the tactical possibilities available because of the details in the game were your toys, and XCOM took a lot of these away.

A common complaint about X-Com, for example, was the hunting down that last alien which was hiding in some closet room. This actually both was VERY rare in X-Com AND has happened to me in XCOM now, so the success of the solution is arguable, but was it really neccessary to make all levels “tight”, i.e. with only one route to follow? How about having a panic mode trigger at a certain point? Or a satellite sweep becoming available after X turns? These things would have solved the problem without comprimising the gameplay.

I think I already outlined most things I miss from the old days. I’ll repeat a few.

I miss TUs, or rather having more control of my turn. This lent itself to simplification, but they went way too far.

I miss destructible terrain. Yay, I can shoot (most) cover - but NOT on purpose! And any actual terrain is impenetrable. Bummer.

I miss random maps. Did X-Com’s gas stations and barnyards get old eventually? They sure did. But when I’ve seen the exact same map three times in a single playthrough, that takes repetition to a whole new level.

I miss having an inventory. And I miss more varied soldier stats.
The skill tree isn’t bad, but I used to be able to give my sniper a laser rifle as a backup weapon (in the original game there was no dedicated sniper rifle, though), or my heavy. I could have someone who could run far AND shoot well AND carry a lot of stuff.

I miss my bases.
The antfarm base isn’t too terrible, but I for one had more than a single main base and some airport bases in the original typically.
Plus XCOM is very stingy with money and especially alloys, so I only had two floors of the four possible when my current game drew to a close.

These should suffice for now.


rezaf

Hey where’s the “like” button?!? I agree with pretty much everything Hugin put in his post, including both his kudos, and his technical complaints.

Well said Hugin.

I think a lot of people making this complaint are remembering Terror From The Deep, with their multiple level(!) cruise ship terror missions that seemed be built entirely out of closets.

Also, note that cover workable entirely orthogonally - diagonals don’t matter. You are either past the cover line, or you aren’t.