5464

The graveyard was the last time the squad was together. It was my first bomb defusal in this CI run, and the execution was flawless. A battle scanner lobbed into the dark showed a clear alley up the right side, and the squad deployed, slinky-ing from tombstone to tombstone. A few pods of Thin Men spotted us through the open doors of the central mausoleum, but the squad put them down in short order, suffering only two superficial wounds to do it. My heavy Major, Diesel, was by this time launching kiloton rockets capable of airbursts with 20 yard kill zones. After defusing the bomb was defused, another five thin men fell out of the sky. Four of them got splattered before they could lift their wingtips off the grass. The fifth wasn’t visible by the end of turn, so I sent a Close Combat Specialist assault to a non-corner piece of cover on a three-cover tomb, following the advice of someone in this thread – they can’t hit you if they can’t see you. Turned out the final thin man would attempt an end run around that very tomb. Muzzle flare in his dark round sunglasses, mission over.

But the next mission came four days later, with my Major still in the infirmary. A UFO touchdown, full crew. Whatever: we’ve got some new carapace armor and laser rifles. Send the understudies along.

Well it was in the dark and misty forest that one of those understudies doomed the Xcom operation. Last move of my turn, no contact yet, he just has to keep up with the herd as we move across the map. But I picked a destination which sent him one tile too close to the enemy. Three floaters rise up from the mist. Same turn, a patrol of three mutons appears on one of our flanks. The tines of the pincer we’re in are formed by two appetizingly clustered alien pods, but remember, my heavy is watching Price is Right from her hospital bed. The squad scurries behind the thickest tree trunks they can find. Doesn’t matter: a string of six misses means we can’t close off one of the flanks. Lances of green plasma streak unerringly between the tree trunks; I spend a lot of time watching my veterans die in slow motion. The rookie who touched off the fiasco was actually the last survivor. Didn’t hit anything with that new laser rifle I’d given him, just scorched the air wildly as the mutons closed in. (Mutons are brutal, by the way. That’s a difficult health pool to handle with conventional small arms.)

After a full squad wipe, I went on tilt pretty bad. The Major left sickbay looking for revenge, but more mutons, this time hulking behind gas pumps, butchered her and her posse. It’s hard not to get salty about some of the particulars of this slaughter: a few of my overwatches didn’t trigger when enemies stepped into what I thought was firing range; some of the mutons kill shots clipped through big chunks of geometry. But I suppose that’s just the ironman life.

After the second full squad wipe, the council pulled the plug on me, and I was left to contemplate my statistics. Apparently it was a perfectly average loss on the Classic difficulty. I survived about the same amount of days as all the other losers, so I suppose that’s encouraging. I felt like I was falling behind though, even had I made it out of that forest. I think I needed to invest more in weapons tech, and develop my B-team a little bit.

5465

Yep, that’s the number one rule of XCOM on higher difficulties and Ironman: Your pointman should be the only soldier who uncovers new area in a round; or IOW: never uncover new area with any soldier after your first.

This also means try not to uncover new area when you have found mobs with your first guy, and are moving your other guys from cover to cover for an advantageous position.

If you break this rule, then chances are you will also reveal new enemies, so you end up fighting two lots of mobs, or even three, and you’re probably screwed.

This can be used to your advantage - in fact you can scoot around bits of a map fairly quickly in formation without even using cover at all, if you follow this rule (although you should always be aware of where the cover is, so you can find it if you need to break for it.

Accidental area uncoverage is probably the number one cause of team wipes :)

Also on higher difficulties and Ironman, better to retreat your first guy to full cover and hunker if he’s found new mobs, or even better, out of LOS altogether, and pull your other guys back out of LOS or to full cover and hunker too (and with smoke too, if poss). Much better to do that, and then lure mobs into overwatch, than be gung-ho.

However, later in the game, when you’re teched up, you can be pretty gung-ho a lot of the time (you start to get a feel for when it’s possible) and it’s quite rewarding after all that cautiousness.

5466

That’s my experience as well. A bunch of guys in the open on Overwatch has some advantages over a group that’s stuck to cover, because if a patrol wanders into range, generally the entire group gets shots, rather than just one or two guys. The drawback is that with Enemy Within, there are now dangerous enemies that drop into Overwatch after initial contact, such as Mechtoids. That’s bad if you have a bunch of guys in the open and don’t have some way of defusing it.

5467

Overwatch has a -20 aim penalty IIRC, so generally it is not very efficient in taking aliens down with overwatch. Especially for Rookies and Squaddies they are better to hunker down rather than use overwatch.

With EW I always have a soldier with mimetic skin to be the scout and find aliens, so the scout will have zero chance to be shot at. (In vanilla game, a support with sprinting and skeleton/ghost armour will be the scout.). The rest of the team will be slightly behind in cover, ready to pounce. The snipers will be safe even further back (but not too far in case some aliens magically teleport near them).

Once aliens are found, then the squadsight snipers will shoot first, while the rest of the team advance to help out.

If, after the snipers have soften the aliens up, I estimate that the team STILL can’t take out revealed aliens after a turn, I retreat as far back as possible so aliens can’t even grenade my team. On impossible, mutons and elites have a nasty tendency to grenade even a single soldier, and they can toss a grenade so much further than a normal soldier. Better safe than sorry. After a turn, the scout with mimetic skin will still have LOS of aliens and the snipers can continue, while the rest of the team will mop up.

If the aliens retreat, then the scout will advance even further to look for targets for the snipers.

Then rinse and repeat.

Team composition will be:

1 In The Zone sniper, 1 Double Tap sniper. Both take Squadsight (goes without saying), Disabling Shot (you don’t need battle scanner if you have a mimetic skin scout, and you need Disabling Shot when you are fighting Sectopod because sometimes you can’t take them out in 1 turn), Opportunist, and Damn Good Ground (gunslinger is practically useless because snipers don’t get much better with CQB even with gunslinger.). Double tap is sometimes more useful than In The Zone because sometimes you really have to take out a Muton Elite without assist, and Double Tap sniper is the only one who can do it (Headshot + a normal shot).

1 Assault with mimetic skin. Take all the damage dealing skills. Lightning Reflex is a MUST. But don’t take Close Quarter Specialist because it will ruin the scouting ability. Assault is here mostly for the Lightning Reflex to get the team out of a jam, and Run and Gun is really good at mopping up that one last tough alien behind cover.

2 Heavies. Both pick Bullet Swarm (holo targeting isn’t worth it unless you take Suppression all the way to Mayhem, but you are still sacrificing too much because you have to give up shredder rocket.) Both pick HEAT ammo (goes without saying), Shredder Rocket (for sectopod or a mob of six+), grenadier and rocketeer. Use medal/gene mod to improve their accuracy (MUST). Against late game aliens they are just as deadly as the snipers.

1 support with all health related skills, sprinter and dense smoke. This is necessary for impossible and/or ironman. Otherwise any class is fine.

My In The Zone sniper has the highest mission to kill ratio, average about >3 kills per mission, all thanks to this strategy. Once a group has been soften up and exposed, the In The Zone sniper will just mow them down one by one. It is the ONLY way for me to finish terror mission, late game in impossible, with all excellent rating. Fighting 4 sectopods in one single terror mission is NOT fun, but I did get a “hell yeah” afterwards with no casualty.

This strategy also got me through the “Army of Four” achievement on classic. Take one of each class, and make the support damage dealing rather than a healer, and get through the story missions ASAP.

5468

“Overwatch is not very efficient” begs the question “compared to what?”

The specific case I was talking about was a group moving about with no enemy contacts, and getting overwatch shots against surprised enemies moving into contact. Since the choice is “overwatch” or “do nothing,” overwatch is very efficient in this case. Hunker down has no value if the enemy doesn’t know about you and will not shoot at you this turn under any circumstances.

The problems with overwatch are (from worst to least) that you don’t have control of who shoots, it’s impossible to get a critical hit without Opportunist, and finally the aim penalty. The aim penalty used to be -20, or -40 for a dashing target. Now it’s 0.7x, or 0.49x for a dashing target, which means that high-aim snipers are no longer guaranteed overwatch hits without Opportunist.

Lack of control is the worst because you can’t prioritize threats. There’s also the problem of wasted shots, where multiple soldiers land killing damage. This is more of a problem in the late game than the early game, as aim and damage improves.

A direct shot at a target is almost always better than overwatch. It’s useful when you don’t have a shot, but you anticipate that the enemy is likely to move through the soldier’s line of sight. This is particularly true of squadsight snipers.

5469

Before ammo conservation, if you have laser or plasma weapon you will chew through ammo fast. So if the choice is between Overwatch or Do Nothing, at that point Do Nothing is better, because chances are the Overwatch shots will miss and you are wasting ammo (unless it is the sniper with opportunist). Or Reload rather than Overwatch. Especially for the heavies with Bullet Swarm, they need to reload all the time.

5470

This is not remotely my experience. You’re grossly exaggerating the chances of a miss. Even with rookies, the hit chance is 45%, and getting one or more free kills on initial contact is huge. The ammunition issue only comes into play if your soldier is down to 1-2 shots.

5471

Is this just in EW? I wasn’t aware of this change. Was there really a community consensus that Overwatch needed a nerf? I guess your point about guaranteed hits with snipers may’ve been the reason?

In my limited experience, the problem with XCom’s gameplay/tactical balance was not that Overwatch was too good, it was that aggressive movement was often too risky and there’s no benefit (before meld) to rushing in. If this were a game where the enemy could react more intelligently and even summon reinforcements, then there’d be plenty of impetus to act quickly.

5472

I tend not to set my Heavies on Overwatch (due to ammo management issues), but generally I find that it’s fairly effective. In part, this is because the aim penalty is somewhat offset by having an exposed target. Yes, ammo and aim penalties are considerations, but for all practical purposes it’s a free shot at the enemy. On my following turn, I’m free to try for a kill-shot or retreat.

I basically treat XCOM as a numbers game–some percentage of shots are going to hit, so I want to maximize the number of times I get to shoot while minimizing the number of times the enemy gets to shoot at me.

5473

I honestly don’t know if it applies to EU or not now. Since you don’t have any chance to see hit chances during overwatch, it’s difficult to verify. I’m going based on information I’m seeing on the wiki. Ufopedia no longer mentions the original -20 and -40.

I don’t think “community consensus” matters, since the community doesn’t make the decisions. I haven’t seen any official word as to the motivations.

If I had to guess, it was about the importance of the Opportunist perk. A Colonel sniper with a SCOPE has an aim of 115, and 95% chance to hit in overwatch under the old rules without Opportunist. The 5% gain is not attractive in the end game. Under the new rule, a Colonel Sniper with a SCOPE has an 80% to hit with an overwatch shot without Opportunist, and 100% with it, a 20% gain.

5474

I guess my priority is different in Impossible. Against heavy floaters and muton elite, missing overwatch shots is the norm rather than exception because all of them have defence bonus by default. 30 for muton elite and heavy floater (10 default + 20 for airborne) in impossible IIRC, so for a 100 accurate support, that means 100 -30 - whatever aim penalty on overwatch. That’s a =<50% chance shot against those aliens on overwatch. You don’t take that shot. Ammo is a real issue when you are fighting one mob after another with little break, and happens all the time on smaller maps like abduction or terror missions. Ammo conservation is the #2 priority once I got a foundry (#1 is tactical rigging for extra inventory slot).

Overwatch is useful on normal, but IMO it is a nasty habit to carry onto classic and especially on Impossible.

I get attached to my little dudes and chicks on higher difficulty. On normal they pretty much can’t die unless I screw up bad. On Impossible they only live because I do well. And I want them to LIVE! LIVE!

5475

My experience is with Classic, not Normal. When I was playing Normal I did a lot of cover-hugging because that’s what I thought I was supposed to do. Overwatch is useful on Classic.

5476

It matters in the sense that I was wondering whether it was considered a welcome/obvious/necessary ‘fix’ or a nerf that might be as bewildering to others as it is to me.

Hmm. I guess I may’ve misunderstood the math/balance because I always favored the Opportunist perk over Executioner. A Sniper with a 115 aim score still has to contend with defensive bonuses on various elite and flying units (I think?), so I assumed that their to hit chance in the late game was still in the 80-90% range before adding the overwatch penalty. (e.g., A Muton Elite has a 20 or 30 defense bonus, so they’d be 115-30=85% for a normal shot and 65% for a regular overwatch shot).

Moreover, Opportunist enables critical hits on reaction shots, and that seems very useful.

Anyway, I’m not looking to debate balance. I’m far from an XCom pro/grognard. I’m just surprised that they would nerf overwatch because this thread had given me the impression that most C/I or I/I players favored hunkering and other tactics anyway. (I personally liked to use it mid-turn so I’d get free shots on aliens during their ‘free move’, but various people in this thread have told me this was an inferior tactic).

5477

Less than 50% is still acceptable if it is only costing you ammunition, not actions. ~45% or so still means you get a lot of kills on initial contact. Your argument would make more sense if the odds were 25%. By the time Muton Elites and Heavy Floaters come out, you always have ammunition conservation.

5478

I watched some crazy guy on twitch beat the game on I/I with every possible second wave option enabled (the ones that make the game harder that don’t unlock until after you beat impossible), 4 man squad only. He definately still used overwatch. It is free shots.

5479

Yeah, at the very start of the game you’re taking shots with something like a 1/3 chance of hitting when taking aimed shots, compared to that once your guys have a few levels and scopes and whatever a 50/50 chance of getting a free hit is awesome. I guess I’m not playing on Impossible but with ammo conservation and six squad members I’ve cleared entire missions without ever actually reloading on any of my soldiers.

5480

I’m not saying don’t ever use overwatch, I’m saying using overwatch by default when you see no enemy is bad habit. The game beat that lesson into you in Easy or Normal, but as you move up the difficulty level, overwatch becomes less and less useful. Reload or just do nothing is sometimes the better option.

Here is another unorthodox opinion: DO NOT kill off EXALT. Why? Late game when you have pinpointed the location of EXALT HQ, chances are you are also facing Muton Elite and Ethereal in every UFO mission. The terror missions are also getting really tough even with plasma weapons. There will be no time to level up the low level guys and chicks. So the EXALT mission becomes the training mission for the newbies.

With plasma weapons the newbies can get some kills and level up while 1 or 2 colonels babysit them or help out when things get tough. EXALT cannot sabotage country panic level, research or money as long as you use intel scan to expose them, and late game you have the money to do it back to back, as soon as you finish one covert operation you immediately start another. The cost will reset every month.

Once you know the pattern of behaviour of EXALT in different missions, they are just easy picking. In data recovery mission, 2 teams of 3 will roam the map looking for the relay to hack. Once they have found the hack area they will always move towards it, and reload instead of firing at any target they see. They prioritise moving and reload at that point. Once entrenched in the hack area THEN they start shooting. So use the turn when they move and reload to kill them off. Also as long as you have a soldier in the hack area they can’t start hacking, so worst case scenario is to slip a soldier in ghost mode to the hack area to counter the hack. In the mean time, the covert operative (preferably with mimetic skin) will go around the map disabling EXALT comm relay to stop EXALT reinforcement trickling in. (If you are feeling brave just let them come, with plasma weapons and decent armour they shouldn’t be a problem.)

In covert extraction, there will also be 2 teams of 3 roaming the map, just kill them off one by one. Only after you have killed off the roaming EXALT team, THEN the covert operative can approach an EXALT comm array. Because as soon as you do that, 3-4 EXALT reinforcement will drop in near the covert operative, just kill them off ASAP. After all the comm arrays are hacked, when the covert operative approaches the evac point, a final wave of 3-4 EXALT reinforcement will appear to stop the covert operative. They shouldn’t be a problem. (Put soldiers on overwatch around the evac point just before you move the covert operative!)

5481

Hacking the relays doesn’t delay reinforcements. It disrupts EXALT’s weapons. That’s why you always see them reloading.

5482

^^^ I read that in the xcom wikia and ufopaedia, and I just find it implausible. So every time you hack it, central will say something like “we’ve disrupted EXALT COMMUNICATION [my bold], that should buy us some time” is a lie???

I distinctly remember in one mission I just don’t bother with hacking relay, they just keep coming more than usual.

5483

It does buy you some time. They have to spend the next turn reloading.

I’m not going to try to rationalize how it’s actually supposed to work in-fiction. Take that up with Firaxis.