1941

Either make your case or do your homework from the middle of this thread. I dissected the actual, assertable gameplay ramifications of X-Com’s TU system before. Have you? Bring up a case and I’ll get into it, if I even feel bothered depending on how you really justify your opinion. TurinTur’s objections have always been shallow and he never bothers to dive into an actual discussion beyond stating a core opinion over and over again. You should read over this thread and really decide if you want to be on that side.

1942

I’m not here to do homework. The last post I saw of yours about X-COM was in regards to the original.

And no, I haven’t dissected any damn thing. I don’t have the time or the inclination, but the point remains you’re being kneejerk aggressive over what is a fairly subjective issue. We could all play the game and /still/ come to differing conclusions as to whether it’s satisfyingly ‘complex’ or ‘deep’. There are no ‘sides’, that’s just… a weird way of looking at it, and /that’s/ what concerns me… this… reflexive desire to staunchly defend a game we’ve not even /played/ yet. It obfuscates the issue and I worry might be hiding some genuine faults.

I have my pre-order, I’m sure I’ll enjoy it… but I am willing to admit there might be aspects to the new version they have flat-out ruined compared to the original that might mar the experience. What’s /wrong/ with that?

1943

Nothing. It’s just Turnin Tur goes on and on and on and on and on about it. The game will be out in a couple days. Until than, another half dozen posts about all the ways it might be disappointing might not be necessary.

1944

They’re as necessary as the posts about how awesome it might be, surely? Else the whole obfuscation thing. If I’m defending Turin here it’s because he appears to me to be the only person barracking for ‘wait and see before we start defending every sweeping change they made as a good decision’.

1945

Negativity isn’t as much fun as being excited.

What is “the obfuscation thing”?

Additionally, there is no reason to ‘wait and see’ since there are hours upon hours of video previews by dozens of sites so we’ve seen enough. Unless it plays wildly different from the videos we have seen, it’s going to be just what we expect. You are either on board with that or (clearly) not. So at this point the people such as Turin and yourself who didn’t take to the changes just need to either play the game for themselves and THEN I’d be interested in hearing what you guys have to say. Else stop rehashing the same old complaints, because at this point nothing is going to change about the things you guys don’t like, and the endless bitching isn’t really making anything better.

1946

I was probably going to play on Classic anyway, but that seals the deal. De-fanging the strategy layer in Normal defeats the point if you’re expecting an X-Com experience. I really wish more games would be up-front about the differences between difficulty modes rather than hiding it behind a layer of secrecy. Not sure whether X-COM makes it clear during difficulty selection or not, but that interview is essential reading if you’ve wondered about that.

1947

Then don’t get involved in a discussion about the mechanics of a videogame between two people whose posting histories you’re not even sure of. My response to TurinTur was not made in a vacuum.

We could all play the game and /still/ come to differing conclusions as to whether it’s satisfyingly ‘complex’ or ‘deep’. There are no ‘sides’, that’s just… a weird way of looking at it, and /that’s/ what concerns me… this… reflexive desire to staunchly defend a game we’ve not even /played/ yet. It obfuscates the issue and I worry might be hiding some genuine faults.

Please read what I quoted in the first place. I am not defending X-Com 2 against criticism of its game mechanics, I am criticizing a videogame player for stating flatly, as fact without insight or considerations, again in this thread, that X-Com 2 has less “tactical options and depth.” I’ve read over 60 pages of this thread and have been here since its inception. This is not the first time Turin (and others) brought up arguable opinions about Firaxis’ X-Com.

I have my pre-order, I’m sure I’ll enjoy it… but I am willing to admit there might be aspects to the new version they have flat-out ruined compared to the original that might mar the experience. What’s /wrong/ with that?

Good thing nobody said that, otherwise what you just typed might be seen as a waste of time. If you do plan on explaining why you think something is ruined, I plan on looking at your complaint as objectively as possible to determine if it’s actually off-base in gameplay terms from the original.

That’s what you get from Turin’s posts? All he said was that he had “somewhat supported” speculations about what he would generalize as the dumbing down of a game when he never even bothered to understand the importance to gameplay of the underlying mechanics of the original. This is a man who thought that the original’s base building gave you “total freedom.” That fucking Word chart is as ridiculously baseless. His “ideal game” column even lists some features THAT ARE CONFIRMED TO BE IN THIS GAME.

The reason you think this is so subjective is because Turin has actually convinced you that these are subjective things while listing objective inaccuracies. You know what I do with people who do that? I give them shit, especially in a case like this where a game has so much nostalgia attached to it that some people are willing to let all the original problems slide by for whatever reason (and there were quite a number of gameplay issues with X-Com), while weighing changes against antiquated mechanics in a harsh light because of the endearing memories they had.

1948

I /am/ excited, I both excited and concerned. I can be both.

The ‘obfuscation thing’ is… well, as I mentioned before, the presentation only of positive views… of excitement dulling and deflecting any legitimate concerns, often to the point of weird and scary unpleasantness as per Pogo up there. Hell, I rarely pre-order a game unless I’m 100% sure I’ll like it, but I pre-ordered X-COM based largely on the excitement of this thread. Now that’s on me, and I’m certainly not blaming anyone here if I don’t enjoy the game… but people like TurinTur have the right to raise the issues of changes they dislike and their opinions as to the very, /very/ subjective nature of ‘tactical depth’ just as fervently, certainly and /repeatedly/ as do people who firmly believe the opposite. Endless bitching is just as valid as endless excited squee’ing.

1949

Yeah, you still don’t get it. When you make a charge of less tactical depth the way Turin brings up time and time again, you’re frequently asked to defend those opinions. You’re playing forum cop. I and others have been picking through game mechanic differences throughout this thread and Turin has consistently ignored all reasonable arguments showing that streamlining does not decrease depth, that complexity does not equal depth. Either get on board with the fact that reasonable arguments exist, or stop acting as if this is just Turin getting picked on for bringing up issues to X-Com 2 fanboys, otherwise you’re at risk of treading in a shallow pool just like he has been all thread.

1950

I had this whole reply typed up until I realized I was wasting my time.

Moving on.

Watching the Game Informer gameplay uploaded today was insightful. I wonder why Adam B (while mentioning the better textures and load times) didn’t mention the awful pop-in on the 360? I suppose it’s becuase EVERY Unreal Engine powered game on the 360 does it, which is understandable.

Still, Adam gives some great early game tips there, such as going for more satallite coverage early to get the income boost, so it’s worth checking out for that.

1951

I’m totally on board with the idea that complexity does not equal depth. But equally I rather like an element of complexity and consider it an element important to an X-COM game.

Likewise I concede the possibility -and even likelihood, given what /I’ve/ seen, read and played - that the new game might suffer on the ‘depth’ front for entirely seperate reasons… but ultimately that is a very, very subjective issue, and I’m not inclined to play make-a-list with an Asperger’s case.

1952

So you’ll retreat from it, just like Turin has, and just state generally that you think the newer game has less depth while condemning criticism of his generalities as being unreasonably supportive of the new game. Throwing yourself into his camp, and then slinking away with a comment that somehow equates attention to detail to a medical condition, makes it so much easier for you to be ignored. And only 60 posts in, I think you broke a record, congratulations.

1953

There’s 60+ pages of discussion, numerous gameplay videos and at least a couple guys here who have had their hands on the game itself. If you have some concerns regarding depth, why not avail yourself of the pool of knowledge here? I’m sure even Pogo would be happy to address your fears if you could provide something concrete rather than these ephemeral statements wrt depth.

I harbor no emotional attachment to the original game myself, so I’m just pleased that I’ll have my hands on a pretty cool game next week.

1954

So have people complained about night missions in the middle of the day on the geoscape yet? 'cause that’s bananas.

1955

I plan on starting on hardcore super duper ironman hard, whatever that is. Bring it!

If I get wiped out, I get wiped out.

Can’t wait!

1956

I’m going to get wiped out and wiped out hard. And then I’m going to get wiped out again, and again. And it will be fun, goddamnit.

1957

What!? Are you fucking serious? That’s insane. INSANE! How could they DO this! Oh man, pre-order CANCELLED!

1958

I too am only going to play hardcore classic mode, or perhaps impossible. I want to lose many times before I finally win.

1959

I think you’re just entitled. This is 2012, not 1993. You can’t expect developers to make missions reflect conditions shown on the geoscape!

1960

Dammit. Steam won’t let me reverse my pre-order. Ah well, I guess I’ll just have to put up with it. I hope it doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of the game, but I’m sure it will. sigh