Agreed. This has been a fantastic thread.
I just grabbed the rules for Conflict of Heroes from their site and I really want it now as well.
edit: And bought. Found a used copy for $35.
You’ll really appreciate CoH after knocking over stacks of counters in ASL. The components are eurogame quality, with big, mounted maps and gigantic, thick counters. The only real problem is the flimsy cardstock that the cards are printed on.
Just to keep piling on games, has anyone tried the War Storm Series? The first is A las barricadas and it looks like it is coming to the US via multiman and being called France 1940. There is a demo download available but it looks to be a couple years old.
Although it’s not based on the ground war, if you want something with fairly complex rules and a lot of counters that you don’t need opponents for you should check out Silent War: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17484
Silent War is an utterly fantastic solitaire game. It’s a monster in terms of time, but the rules aren’t all that complex.
And a sequel is due sometime in the next decade.
Played a bunch of CC:E lately – I so want to love that system because there are so many excellent decisions in it. But ultimately the randomness and inability to actually make much of a plan have killed it for me.
Conflict of Heroes is awesome, but definitely a simplified wargame. Not quite as simplified as Memoir '44, which is my favorite “30-45 mins” WW2 game, easily.
Panzer Grenadier is cool, but I find the platoon scale a little less compelling than squad scale.
McGlu and I are going to try and dive into Starter Kit #1, which scares me but should be exciting. :) I also have ordered ATS Stalingrad set, in case it seems more appealing…
Yup fair enough. Although its fair to note many of the ASL rules are only required on a per scenario basis.
Is there any connection between the games you guys are describing and Warriors of God, Hammer of the Scots, and Manoeuvre? Because all three of those are still collecting dust for me, despite their apparently self evident excellence. I got closer to completing a round of Fortress America, coasting on absurdity alone.
LK, the three you mentioned, while excellent, are definitely very light in terms of wargames. Those and the other games mentioned in this thread are worlds apart (except for Conflict of Heroes, Combat Commander, Memoir '44, etc). ASL, ATS, and OCS all require a time commitment bordering on insanity.
Yeah, I was mentioning it more in reference to the relatively normal games that some of you actually seemed to be playing vs merely fantasizing about someday getting far enough in the rulebook to talk about maybe someday setting up the first turn of an actual game. Or something.
But yeah, Warriors of God in particular has a really compelling presentation, I just can’t seem get over that “never played before” inertia. But it took me months just to get into my first round of Race for the Galaxy, so maybe it’s just a matter of lots of time.
Now back to your regularly scheduled grognardery. I apologize for the distraction.
I have Warriors of God and really want to play it. The mechanic by which your leaders can randomly die looks like a lot of fun. Also: Robin Hood and Jeanne d’Arc.
I also think thatDowntown: Air War Over Hanoi, 1965-1972 is in my near future.
I hate the only person near me that I’m aware of that is willing to play a variety of wargames is one of those extremely conservative guys that just can’t shut up about it. I don’t care what a person’s politics are, but I really don’t want to hear about it either.
Well, one of those things isn’t like the others. Manoeuvre is a lightly-themed abstract battle game, more like Stratego than anything else. Memoir '44 is maybe on that level, but I think a vastly better game (though I prefer the similar-but-better Command & Colors: Ancients to M44).
The other two of those you list are light/medium-complexity wargames. In theory, COH and CC:E should be more complex, but in practice I found HotS too fiddly to play and both COH and CC:E quite good, so I dunno.
Do you ever seriously attempt single player runs? I can’t imagine doing that myself but it seems quite common in the genre.
I hate the only person near me that I’m aware of that is willing to play a variety of wargames is one of those extremely conservative guys that just can’t shut up about it. I don’t care what a person’s politics are, but I really don’t want to hear about it either.
That’s awful. In my case I have probably one person who would give it a shot but we both lean towards Euros over this style. No excuse, really.
The lines blur easily for me, but I think I see what you mean. Would that put it closer to games like Neuroshima Hex than “real” war games?
The other two of those you list are light/medium-complexity wargames. In theory, COH and CC:E should be more complex, but in practice I found HotS too fiddly to play and both COH and CC:E quite good, so I dunno.
Well, it’s one of those things that builds incrementally. HotS seems simpler than all of the others, then you start playing and exceptions and sub rules start piling up. But for what it’s worth their customer service is fantastic.
Yeah, this is definitely true. You typically need the entire OCS ruleset (maybe not the naval rules) no matter what scenario or campaign you’re playing, whereas ASL is basically all special cases, so you just use what you need. Of course, I consider this a bug, not a feature, as mentioned above. :-)
This is a pretty big danger in the area of wargaming. It’s a shame when someone can’t be polite enough to lay off the politics for a while, though.
What about the regular (not advanced) squad leader. I seem to remember that game as being awesome.
I haven’t played Neuroshima Hex, but I think yes. M44 is extremely gamey and Euro-simple.
Well, it’s one of those things that builds incrementally. HotS seems simpler than all of the others, then you start playing and exceptions and sub rules start piling up.
Yeah, all that flavor-capturing chrome adds up. “English nobles cannot winter in Scotland, except in 1584, provided that William Wallace has not been captured unless Robert the Bruce has also defected to the English side. EXCEPTION: The Duke of Monmouth may always winter in Scotland.”
That’s why I much prefer the way Combat Commander does it – a fairly straightforward (not simple, but sensible and systematic) rule system, with a lot of the flavour being handled through cards that provide exceptions to the general rules. Instead of memorizing this long exception list, you just handle exceptions as you get them, with text that’s right in front of you.
There’s more overall complexity in the base rule set, but it’s the kind of complexity that forms core game systems and which you learn quickly, not the kind that keeps you looking at the rules to see what’s weird this turn.
Interesting, I’ll have to check it out. NH is one of the coolest things in my game collection. I don’t even know if I like the mechanics that much, it’s just fun to play with.
Yeah, all that flavor-capturing chrome adds up. “English nobles cannot winter in Scotland, except in 1584, provided that William Wallace has not been captured unless Robert the Bruce has also defected to the English side. EXCEPTION: The Duke of Monmouth may always winter in Scotland.”
Yeah, someone warned me about that here after I’d already bought it, and once it was apparent there was no getting past it.
That’s why I much prefer the way Combat Commander does it – a fairly straightforward (not simple, but sensible and systematic) rule system, with a lot of the flavour being handled through cards that provide exceptions to the general rules. Instead of memorizing this long exception list, you just handle exceptions as you get them, with text that’s right in front of you.
There’s more overall complexity in the base rule set, but it’s the kind of complexity that forms core game systems and which you learn quickly, not the kind that keeps you looking at the rules to see what’s weird this turn.
Also interesting, with the undoubtedly erroneous analogy that comes to mind being Hannibal. I’ll add it to the batch of possibilities for when Arabian Nights finally comes out and I go to pick up another shipment of games. Thanks again, and I’m through pretending I feel any ethical constraints about destroying the serious wargame thread one unserious game at a time.
I think this is a great option, but I would also add the first expansion, Cross of Iron. I think in the end the 3 starter kits aren’t that much different than old school SL.
I agree with your general point, but HotS is a terrible example. The rules are only a few pages long, the chrome is minimal, and it’s very easy to keep track of everything because of the combination of the low unit density and the availability of excellent player aids. It’s a very straightforward game.
As an aside, if anyone here is really interested in Memoir '44 I have a ton of stuff I’m looking to get rid of (two base sets, Eastern Front, Pacific Theater, Air Pack, Terrain Pack, Winter/Desert Map) so PM me if you’re interested. It’s all in mint condition, stored out of the sunlight in a non-smoking home, etc. Battlelore and C&C: Ancients have kept it out of the rotation for so long that there’s no point in keeping it around anymore.