They aren’t listening even before you ban them.
Wumpus has a point.
I wouldn’t know, wasn’t listening.
Exactly. They don’t come to join a community, they come to try and change it, sometimes even recruit from it or just for their jollies.
Ostensibly, conservatives want the same things from liberals. But maybe they are too “woke” (or whatever the conservative version is) and snotty to admit it.
Do you think that our community here would be ripe for such things?
I think that in some of these cases, you’re reading more into things than are actually there. This isn’t a criticism of you, as we all bring our own baggage to the table, and I understand your situation is different than my own. I’m not discounting it.
But at the same time, in the case we had with gman, I think that folks overreacted to what I recall was really a single line he regurgitated about white culture.
Now, you know that I’m by no means a nazi appologist. I do not believe they should be given a platform for their crap. But I could easily see what gman said as simply being someone thoughtlessly regurgitating something that was stated on various far right sites and blogs, places which are not exclusively white supremacists. I don’t think that it necessarily included the type of fully internalized racism that many folks attributed.
The problem with just entirely throwing him out, instead of just forcefully dismantling those specific arguments and pointing out their racism, is that he’ll be pushed into those communities where white supremacists push out their garbage. And he won’t be exposed to you telling him its racist.
This is a big part of what results in Trump’s core support. His supporters simply are not exposed to anyone pointing out how his bullshit is totally nonsensical. For the most part, they self-segregate themselves into enclaves that ignore most facts. I think there’s an opportunity with someone like gman to at least expose him to all the stuff that shows how fucked up Trump is. Force him into the uncomfortable position of having to defend that stuff.
Folks who recall back in the day when I joined these forums, I was more conservative than I am now. Does anyone remember the folks who shouted me down, or said I was just some sock-puppet from some other older conservative poster? Because I do. But arguing with folks here expanded my views, and I learned things. I like to think that I rarely taught other folks something too, but I somewhat selfishly care more for my own edification.
So I kind of have a little perspective here, in that I’ve experienced first hand the wrath of the forum towards a conservative voice.
Horseshit. Tom already said this guy wouldn’t admit he wrote for right-wing websites because he lost friends over it. Direct quote:
I have since found out, however, that my friend didn’t tell me about one of his jobs working for a certain well-known media outlet. He claims he withheld the information because people treat him differently when they find out. He says he’s lost friends over this job.
So the only reason that guy was here is because he was actively seeking out a new political venue to hide in where he wouldn’t be ashamed of himself.
There is a moral stigma to holding bigoted, racist, and sexist opinions, and that stigma culminates in showing them the door.
But that doesn’t actually contradict my statement.
I’ve said this myself, but this guy wasn’t a Nazi. I think you’re overplaying your hand a bit there.
And a key thing about even a Nazi, is that you’re throwing them out for espousing Nazi beliefs, not for what they are. They aren’t inherently a Nazi. If they change, then they should be accepted for bettering themselves.
You are kind of treading dangerously close to fascism yourself here, in that suggesting that someone be banned for simply making bigoted statements, implies that you are a fair arbiter of that classification. I would offer that you are not.
In the case of an actual self-identified Nazi, it’s easy. No subjective judgement is needed. He chooses to stand for abhorrent things, including the actual murder of other human beings. His views are inherently incompatible with society.
But bigoted or sexist statements do not all cross that line so clearly. I suspect virtually everyone has bigoted ideas now and then, and it’s only through practiced introspection are we able to recognize them for what they are.
In this environment, I’m not scared of GMan somehow converting people into Nazis. I don’t think he’d even want to. I don’t believe he was quite the irredeemable monster that you have judged him to be.
What you just said and what @Timex said are not remotely incompatible. You are both right, imo.
However, while I was disappointed with the way things spiraled out of control, I have since come to appreciate your point about the emotional distress it was causing the community, and putting a stop to it was the right thing to do at that time.
I saw a bunch of people here defend a racist, a member of white supremacy. Of course I do. And you can come back with all the excuses you want, pretzel yourself to explaining why you think the way you do. The fact is, you don’t know. You don’t want to know, and it’s too easy for you to act and pretend like you know and be wrong because the consequence for you and people like you is zero to be wrong…
What are there names Timex, what are the names and races of all the people you’ve converted? Who are the people they encountered after your mythical conversion that said yesterday I treated the “others” like bugs and suddenly after a couple of circular arguments online they stop spitting at people, stopped advocating for their second-class citizen status, stop okaying their meaningless deaths.
You had no consequence for him to be here, and you still have this fairy-tale ideal in your head of what would have happened after years of accepting so called civil racism on a forum board. Racism is not civil. It is not polite, and that was a professional who showed up here to spread his propaganda under the guise of joining a community.
I don’t believe that GMan was an irredeemable racist or white supremacist.
I believe that he had internalized various bigoted views, because he was unaware of exactly why and how they were bigoted. But I feel that those kinds of views can be changed through discourse, because they don’t stem from a core of actual hate towards other people. I don’t think that GMan hated you because you’re half black.
I would offer myself, as someone who through conversations with folks here, became more introspective and more aware of how certain views that I thought were fine, were callous or harmful to others.
Does that count?
He ran around asking me if I could handle random ass things he said, asking me about black culture, black nationalists, and all the other weirdo shit racists asks about from ideologies based on race understandings form the 1960s; standard questions they created. He didn’t know who I am or what I am because he doesn’t care. So no, he didn’t hate me because I was half-black, he didn’t care enough to know I was half-black. He showed up and found out there was at least one black person on the board based on a few posts, and that was his reaction.
No. Because not believing how often people experience something is not the same as being afraid of some others dirtying your legacy and culture or freaking out about birthrates of only white women.
So in-short, you don’t have a list. You just believe what you do because there are inspirational videos and a few articles, often done by… white guys, about how they successfully converted people. Most of those people, those ex-members, they didn’t do it solely on forums, they did it in person and often as a full time push, not just quasi side hobby on a forum that is already a side hobby. You know what else they didn’t do, strap a bunch of minorities to a chair and told them to watch.
If you want to talk to white supremacists about their views, they’ve got plenty of corners of the world where you can go and make that choice. Go for it.
But you’re only thinking about my views regarding police use of force.
I would say that some of my earlier views regarding gays were certainly homophobic. Not really due to some deep seated hatred for gays, but mainly out of ignorance, and based on being raised in a society that largely believed they were supposed to be kept out of the public eye.
They were bigoted views. On some level, maybe I’m not supposed to want to admit that? But I don’t mind, because I think I improved myself since then.
But it was talking to folks here and elsewhere, and hearing the counterarguments against my beliefs, that changed my views.
Well, there’s this by a black guy who basically singlehandedly dismantled the KKK in Maryland.
And the guys that guy converted were almost certainly way, way, way worse than GMan.
This may be a facet I didn’t fully understand. Was it so hurtful to you to see him say those things, even in the face of essentially everyone else in the whole forum telling him he was wrong, that you would rather he just not be allowed here at all? Even if that means that he further internalized those views that hurt you, and went on to spread them in venues where they would not be challenged and thus spread to others much more readily?
As I said before, I acknowledge your different perspective on this issue.
To me, I would think that seeing such things so thoroughly discredited and dismantled by so many here would be heartening, but I accept that I lack the same perspective you have and your experience is different. I also think that the chance of improving someone and turning them away from those kinds of views would be a good thing that would improve the world moving forward.
I have a lot of respect for what the members of the LBGTQA group go through, but it’s not the same as racial tension. They can pass, often do. Other minorities can simply not do that. It’s not the same.
Within seconds of reading this article, you know what he says… he says he sat down with them in person… if I keep reading is it going to say he converted them by engaging in circular arguments with them for days, allowing them to change the topic of discussion and try and back off offensive and vile statements by pleading random ass ignorance at whim… on online forums? Is it going to say that?
This did not happen. You think it did, but it absolutely did not happen. Our forum, our community not only engaged a member of white supremacy, essentially making that viewpoint legitimate here and encouraging it, there were several people who supported him, including portions of his views and his presence here. You don’t understand because you don’t want to, and not only that, you and several members here dismissed and continue to dismiss a reaction you don’t understand which is why we keep talking about it, often like it’s a brand new revaluation for some reason, every time this guy comes up again. You still refuse to believe that was white supremacy.
Some people want to know, and act surprised, why we have literal Nazis and open white supremacy in our government today, even more running for office… well here we are. Give them a voice, legitimize their perspective, teach them that saying vile things as long as they are polite is ok, and then wonder why that happened. And of course, refuse to label white supremacy when you see it because it’s often not some man or woman screaming at people to stop dirtying their pool and ruining their neighborhoods; it’s usually more subtle than that.
I am of mixed feelings about this. Firstly, while I didn’t read everything that in the Gman saga I read enough to know that he expressed some ideas that should make most people uncomfortable. And I can see why Nesrie would feel the way she feels.
At the same time I think differing opinions are a good thing, and forums would be extremely boring if it was just people agreeing with what other people wrote. Especially in P&R. There is an opportunity to educate, and no doubt, an opportunity to insult.
I can honestly say things I have read online in forums have changed or helped define some of my positions. I have taken what I see online and added what I see in the world around me and tried to compare the two, coming up with, in some ways, a new and better me. I hope anyway.
Have you considered that your own understanding is perhaps imperfect?
I mean here, you seem to be attacking me for engaging you in discussion, saying that I don’t want to understand you. I’m not sure how i could do more to illustrate that’s not true. I’ve explicitly stated my respect for your perspective here. But that respect does not automatically result in agreement. You understand that, right? My disagreement with you is not due to me disrespecting your experience.
Is it really that you want me to just nod my head to you? That your view is perfect, and will not benefit from discussing it with those who disagree with any aspect of it? What benefit would that possibly have for you? That couldn’t possibly be a rewarding experience.
Engaging a person does not at all legitimize their viewpoint. Telling them that they are wrong, and explaining why, does not legitimize it.
No one here supported any white supremacist views from him. They may have told others not to attack him personally, but that is less support for his ideas as much as it is a desire to not destroy our community here and get in the habit of just shrieking at each other. (And yes, i realize that i personally was perhaps less than civil towards him)
Understanding is a two way street. You have to also exert some degree of effort to understand other people, and not always assume the worst possible motivations.
You have zero consequences for being wrong. At the end of the day, if you are wrong, nothing happens to you. You wake up tomorrow and if some guy who moonlights in a sheet canvases your door, nothing changes for you. What makes you think your viewpoint is more accurate than mine when you have zero skin in the game? You have no reason to be cautious. There is no price for you.
You’re not saying this to me. You snipe at me every few months, and you will post something that is literally nothing but an attack, literal one sentence attack on me. What did you think would happen after doing that for… years? Of course I am wary of your approaches.
I don’t know why you think this happened, but it didn’t. Not everyone on this board refuted him. It simply did not happen. Remember all his thank yous and pats on the head?
You can’t even recognize it. You literally just posted above me that you don’t think he is white supremacy so how the heck can you claim no one supported it? You can’t have it both ways.
I’m sorry if I added at all to that environment. I have a strong lean towards providing the benefit of the doubt, especially online where important contextual cues are lacking and not everyone has a strong ability to present their views.
I’ve also been raised to believe that ignorance is what breeds bigotry, and therefore shining a light on it is the cure. Sadly, recent years have shown how flawed that approach can be.
That said, you just implied Timex supported white supremacy. I don’t think you meant it that way, but this is part of what I was talking about above; we’re imperfect beings, with imperfect communication.
Nesrie, sometimes you get in a mode where you retreat into a totally defensive stance and attack everything. And sometimes that makes you treat others poorly.
I didn’t say what i did with the intention of hurting you, and i know you were going through some tough stuff. I’m sorry.
Because I don’t think that he was demonstrating the kind of fully internalized bigotry that you ascribe to him. The statements that he made demonstrating bigotry were absolutely condemned by everyone i saw. But that condemnation does not require that they support attacking him.
I strongly disagree. it stopped me from coming to P&R for a while. But maybe I missed his redemption.