But not, apparently, this thread?

1 result for economic anxiety topic:78214

Brexit, aka, the UK Shoots Itself

Politics and religion

12m - “Economic anxiety.” Feels like I know that framing from somewhere.

When you say this is about identity, how is that different from people saying this is about immigrants? Not to mention the absurdity of the notion that the EU has anything to do with this; national identities haven’t been erased in the many years since the EU have been founded and they’re unlikely to be so any time soon. Quite the contrary, in fact.

As for the sovereignty issue, there’s no question that many people use it as a shield for racism. That’s always been the case; nationalism and racism have been constant bed-fellows pretty much since the former movement started. But I won’t discount that there are people who see this as a serious problem, disassociated from other concerns. I’m just not particularly impressed with it, because it’s a stupid argument, born from a fundamental lack of understanding of the complex balancing act that the EU performs.between being a federation and an international organization.

Unfortunately, it’s also always going to be an easy argument for Brexiters, because it’s always going to be easier to cry “Oh, they’re taking away our freedom” than to explain the ways in which a highly complicated system like the EU has been constructed in order to balance national sovereignty with cooperation. Cooperation requires give and take. Unfortunately, people no longer seem to understand this, it feels like (also exemplified by people’s attraction to Trump’s simplistic and utterly stupid zero-sum deal-making).

Of course, it also doesn’t help that many Remain politicians spent most of their career blaming the EU for all their own failures at every opportunity (while taking credit for themselves for all benefits the EU brought). This is unfortunately a common failing of national politicians throughout Europe, and fuels a huge amount of anti-EU sentiment.

But as I’ve said a couple of times, I’m interested in seeing the reaction in the UK once they’re out, and the EU no longer has to coddle British sensibilities. Because the fact is that the UK government will end up spending even more time implementing directives from the EU after Brexit than before. Industry and services still needs to follow EU regulations to export to the EU. Government agencies still need to cooperate with their colleagues in the EU. The only difference post-Brexit, is that no one is going to really care what the UK thinks about those regulations once they’re out.

As many political scientists have pointed out, standing outside the EU while being a part of Europe gives you less sovereignty - not more. The UK government will inevitably find itself in the same unenviable situation as Norway is in - unable to exert real influence, but equally unable (due to domestic politics) to actually do the sensible thing and (re)join.

But at least anti-EU politicians will have a handy scapegoat to blame for all domestic ills for decades to come.

May or May’s government believed the hype. That the EU truly needs the UK more than the other way around. Or that the EU would concede a deal based on the economic arguments.

Someone didn’t realize that the EU cannot give a former member a better deal than current members get. That even if the EU could, not right now it can’t, with the EU in serious trouble from all the nationalistic politics. That for some people the EU is not just an economic thing, and much like Brexit, it’s worth some economic pain. That the EU is willing to bend the rules to help politicians in member states, but not so much for politicians in former member states.

You make some good points, but this is just not true. Like - at all.

There is literally constant dialogue, both within the EU organizations and by political scientists, about how to address the perceived problems of the EU. And changes are being implemented - often. I’d go so far as to say that the frequent changes are part of the current problem people have in understanding the democratic consequences of their EU votes. It’s really, really hard for an average EU citizen to understand how his vote for EU MP actually counts, when the system is constantly changing (the wiki page on Council voting gives a good overview of just how frequently voting systems get changed and modified. There’s literally not been a decade since the 1970s without changes to the council voting system. And that’s just one small part of what makes the EU tick).

Not directed at you, just anyone that is still remain having full knowledge of what the true cost is.

From everything I’ve read, people thought when they voted remain (outside of all the racist stuff) that it was about economic opportunity, making the British economy better, and that the EU was holding them back. EVERY single interview I ever saw with a brexiter hit on this and never once did they say it had to do with sovereignty. It was always"We’re wasting our money throwing it at the EU" - something Draxen mentioned which led to my posts.

Here’s a personal example. I have a friend who is pro-brexit, but I didn’t know it until last week. He’s developmentally challenged and a gamer. Met him through Steam. He’s 23 as is his wife. She’s extremely disabled from being beaten regularly (and viciously) as a child. Their finances have been awful and they’ve been broke in part due to “austerity”. I found out they voted for Brexit thinking it was going to strengthen the safety social net. I had no idea he was a Brexiter until he mentioned wanting to join the yellow vest movement last week. When I told him the truth… that things were going to get worse for them economically if Brexit happened he was shocked. He was totally besides himself.

This is the prime example where people who voted for Brexit had no idea what they were doing because they were swept up in hysteria. A lot of people who voted for it will say they don’t mind some economic hardship now because they’re too proud to admit they screwed up and were tricked. Heck, look at union members here in the U.S. who voted for trump - the whole face-eating leopard thing. They still will say they believe in him because they still can’t grasp how badly they were tricked and taken advantage of.

I’ve got to mention the whole “sovereignty” thing sure feels a whole lot like Southern states saying they wanted sovereign rights ie. the Civil War split was over “States rights” and not slavery. I’m sure you can agree when you add in the racist components of Brexit you can draw a few parallels there. I’ve lived with the bullshit from Southern people my whole life and when I see people totally discount outward racism or Islamophobia - it’s being intellectually dishonest. Once again, Trump is on that side along with all the white nationalists.

Pretty much any time white nationalists represent a side, that is the wrong side.

When you say the deal is “strategically misguided” with regard to Northern Ireland, do you have a specific conception of what a sound post-Brexit EU policy for NI would include?

From my American perspective–so doubtless missing a lot of stuff-- EU integration made the Troubles go away, and that should serve as a model for meeting the concerns of other sub-national groups within the EU.

Trump jr, who can’t find his head from a hole in the ground, is trying to tell you what to do:

Seriously Britain. Look at who you’re “advisors” are. Gah!

The yellow jackets are fairly close to being declared an extremist organisation.

They are funded by the Kochs and US far right/supremacist money. Bannon and co.

And are overt Nazis. They are the brown shirted thugs of the Brexit movement.

29 of March is next week. Holy shit.

Usually spotted in an article defending Nazis, far right terrorists and Trump supporters as poor innocent little white angels forced to become nazis/run over women protestors/mosque shooting sprees because its only a natural reaction to it being difficult to get a job with supremacist facial tattoos.

The latest line from the Brexiters in the UK is “being told we were racist forced us to become racist”

Some interesting developments this morning.

May will request a short extension:

Junker says a decision unlikely at the summit
“As long as we don’t know what Britain could say yes to, we can’t reach a decision.”

EDIT: Clarified post with updated information

I’m hoping there will be no extension so we can put an end to this circus. It’s not like an additional three months will make any difference whatsoever given the state of the UK’s ‘leadership’.

Latest Make Me Smart podcast has the BBC’s Ros Atkins on to talk about Brexit. It’s mostly a primer for us Americans who may not know a whole lot about what it all means.

If you’d like to go deeper the BBC made an excellent series on the British/European relationship. It’s like 20 years old now so apologies for the potato quality but it has interviews with most of the key players.

Yeah. Realistically, is anything going to change if there’s an extension? The Brits have had 2 years and they still can’t agree on anything.

30 June it is. The Commission is already spinning furiously against it. Can’t blame them since the letter basically says we won’t hold European elections.

I feel some sympathy for May. She’s got some serious grit to stick to her guns in the face of such criticism. Although I guess you could argue that she’s doing so because she’s completely out of options. Delivering any kind of Brexit was always going to be a crushing and thankless task. She’s being attacked from all sides and I respect that she’s still publicly trying to uphold the referendum result.

So it sounds like new Brexit day will (most likely) be 22nd May.

Hey, here’s a selfish question: If we hold google stock earned here in the UK; and the pound tanks because of Brexit; but being a US company, would that stock suddenly buy us more pounds, or is that stock tied to the UK value? Looking for silver linings here…

That’s going to depend on how the stock award is calculated, surely.