Ok, so last week gave us some images that I think really show the population’s divide:
First we have an anti-independence demonstration. This was promoted mostly by the political parties that refuse to allow a vote, even one that follows procedures and offers guarantees.
this one was a demonstration during a pro-independence strike. This was promoted mostly by the political parties that want independence now or at least are heavily pushing towards it.
Finally this is a demonstration for dialog. This was promoted mostly by the political parties that want a negotiated solution (further autonomy or a real referendum with guarantees) as a political solution.
All these images are from Barcelona last week. I’m sure you could find photos showing much more people in the two first images, but I was in a hurry and I think they make their point. There’s a lot of people in every side of this in Catalonia.
Of course my descriptions are a simplification and you have some overlap between the people who want further negotiations and dialog and the people at the two extremes of nationalism (most likely there were people for the vote but not the independence at the pro-independence negotiations, and there were people for dialog and further autonomy at the pro-union demonstration).
But it does show how there are multiple sides to this and why fostering further conflict, either by radicalization or police action, is probably a very bad idea.
I’ve a quick rule that I used to evaluate people I don’t know well, not sure if it’ll help.
I run as far away as I can from people who tell me how different and special I am so that they can promote disunity. So that they can carve out their own kingdoms.
Typically there is an agenda that we cannot fully discern. And we typically find that people who build on differences instead of shared values turn out to be truly destructive, no matter what they may mouth about love for peace and rights.
Most recently, we witness Brexit, Ukraine separatist movements using the same techniques, that is, to focus and build on the differences. “See how special we are. See how oppressed we have been.” It’s really sad to see people repeating/supporting the same thing they condemn in others.
I reserve politeness for people who don’t sum up a complex legal, political and cultural situation with a one liner, and then react with frustration when someone points out that that one-liner might not quite cover the situation.
I certainly reserve politeness for people who don’t arrogantly state how the world de facto works, despite that almost everything they state as being true is being provably untrue.
If the peaceful way doesn’t work, you have to do it the less peacecful way.
The internet is full of people confidently spreading nonsense ‘knowledge’. That’s doing fundamental and irreparable harm to society as a whole, and any sort of public discourse as a specific.
Am I not meant to treat people who talk shite as if they talk shite? There’s a difference between not knowing something, and stating you know something when you quite clearly don’t know something. Many QT3 users seem happy to shit over all Trump and his supporters for being blowhard ignorant buffoons but seem to feel uneasy when someone on QT3 who acts in the same manner is treated with condescension.
That’s rich coming from a guy whose only insight in the matter is the newspaper, but nevertheless has a conviction on the matter so strong you could bend a steel bar around it. The same guy who sees the issue in legal positivist lenses so thick he can only make out violence on the side that hasn’t physically hurt anyone and throws in mentions of rape or anti-abortionists into the mix at the drop of the hat, for good measure. Clearly, the quality of public discourse and society is safe in your hands.
I’d argue that the right to external self-determination is neither the ironclad rule you seem to think it is nor did it preclude nations from becoming independent by other means, but yeah… no.
Look, fine, I see I shouldn’t have thrown a comment in here lightly. The following week might be very trying to many, so I wish the best of luck to everyone in finding a resolution to this.
From what I hear, it’s not an option to leave Spain but stay in the EU; if they leave Spain, they de-facto leave the EU? At least that’s my understanding, in that they could not be recognized as an independent state without Spain’s agreement, or something. It does seem complicated.
In general, I view separatism with deep skepticism. All questions of appropriate responses, violent political change, and legalism aside, I tend to feel that most modern separatist movements are motivated more by a sort of ethno-nationalism that usually winds up leading to worse, not better, human rights situations. There are cases where an ethnic, religious, or linguistic minority are getting the shaft from a central government, but even then I’m not sure that more autonomy within a federal system isn’t a better solution than outright independence.
Usually, and I may be too cynical here, it seems the biggest supporters of outright independence are either groups that look to create an ethnic enclave (and hence, get rid of everyone not pure enough to meet their standards of nationality), or are wealthy types looking to have a captive government with far lower taxes. I mean, in a lot of cases, these separatist movements would create states that would have no need for a military, for instance, because everyone around them would do the heavy lifting, thus there would be no tax burden for such. Etc.
No clue really about Catalonia per se; I think Juan has the closest perspective and seems to be giving us good, well-rounded observations.
It isn’t complicated. If they leave Spain on “bad terms” they’re out of the EU. Because they’re out of Spain. Because Spain would veto everything. Because other EU countries don’t want to encourage independentist movements of their own.
If they leave on “good terms”, they’re probably still out but with a quick look at reentry, similar to Scotland when they did their referendum.
But because we are living in a post-truth world some people seem to think that an independent Catalonia would remain in the EU and be welcomed with open arms even if they unilaterally declared independence.
It’s even more complicated than that. A lot of the opposition not to independence but even to allow a referendum is based on respect for our constitution and unwillingness to change it.
Problem is, our constitution considers original Spanish citizens as anybody born in Spain or from spanish parents. And such an original Citzen can not have it’s citizenship taken away, by, yes, constitutional imperative.
Should Catalonia declare independence and achieve a de-facto self governance (big if, honestly), most of its citizens would still be considered Spanish citizens under Spanish law, and thus EU citizens, even in the region itself is not in the EU or the newborns are not (and only if one of their parents is not an original citizen itself). thus they will have the legal protections, right to travel, right to work, etc… of every other European.
That is, unless they change the constitution, which is exactly what the people against allowing a referendum don’t want to do (opposition on legal basis to the right to vote is based on the understanding that the Constitution needs such a vote to be cast by all Spaniards, not only Catalonians).
This part os the puzzle is hilarious (which is good, given that everything else is as unfunny as it gets).
I am from Zaragoza, that is part of Aragon,that is part of Spain that is part of Europe, that is part of Earth that is part of the Solar System.
My family emigrated from africa 200.000 years ago. And now we live here, after our family spreaded all over the world.
I find the idea of nations artificial and pointless, but I understand the sentiments these things can generate. Ignoring these sentiments seems a bad idea.
Looks like Puigdemont has blinked. Declaration of independence “suspended”, but they will work to put into practice the referendum result and seek a mandate for independence.
Yeah, we are back to two years ago only with quite more tension in the air. Now we have to wait to see if the government becomes a rational actor and opens real negotiation (either a lot of autonomy or offering a referendum are needed, imho). There are hardline sectors within the government and its allies that are still pushing for autonomy suspension (which would bring even more people towards nationalism/independence). If they avoid that and both sides enter bona fide negotiations there might still be a way out of this.
Still, we are in a far worse position than two years ago, the police intervention will not be forgotten easily.
Signs the declaration but puts it on hold for negotiations. Is this what it means to “blink”? Seems more like no way to implement independence (from and objective viewpoint) And declaring independence anyway and saying “well, the ball is in their court.”
Not really. He’s been taking a lot of heat from the more hardcore bunch of secessionists, who do consider the suspension a betrayal (that has broken the secessionist coalition somewhat). In my opinion (and that of most political commentators) this seems to be opening the position for negotiations with the government and it’s indeed a “blink” even if a small one. I’m sure if a deal becomes possible the declaration will be wet paper.
But the government seems not willing to negotiate at all for now. It’s still early, and tomorrow is the Day of Spain, including a military parade. I think either they suspend autonomy very soon (which would be a disaster in terms of long term governance and support of the population in Catalonia) or they will wait until next week to quietly starting to negotiate. This is like a political Mexican standoff.
We are basically back at where we were 2 weeks ago. The absence of an unilateral declaration opened the option to negotiate (and for a moment last week I had hopes of a negotiated settlement) , but that option is gone again, so this keeps marching forward.
Rajoy seems to determined to impose article 155 whatever happens. Regional elections are a perfect opportunity to defuse the situation, at least for now, and with the threat of article 155 gone they might well get rid of Puigdemont. Why shut them down peremptorily unless you’re trying to inflame tensions?
