Daredevil (Netflix)


And yet you think Finn and Rey are such richly nuanced characters. Simpering wusses do not crush your skull with a car door. D’onofrio’s Kingpin was a good actor bringing a layered character to life. He wasn’t just a brutal mafioso, he didn’t care solely about money and power, he wasn’t emotionally dead, he was aware of the moment in his childhood that served as an inflection point for his life, he wanted to be loved at the same time he could demonstrate horrific disregard for human life, was capable of being kind while also capable of extreme acts of violence. I’d say next to Hiddleston’s Loki he’s my favorite Marvel villain.


That was a weird rejoinder. Yeah, I enjoy those delightful folks in Star Wars, which is a space opera that I consider light fare.

Daredevil’s has always been a darker, moodier universe. I don’t know that there is a good way to bring to life the Kingpin character, some things just don’t translate as well off the page.

However simply in the context of his relationship w/ Vanessa, disregarding his other brutal side, he was exactly as I described. A simpering wuss. I can’t imagine what Vanessa saw, taking him in context of their own on-screen relationship, from that guy except that he was a man child. Their entire time together on screen made me cringe.


I do not find Fisk to be a simpering wuss at all. In many ways, he is a bit of a manchild, and yet he also seems very much aware of that facet of his personality as well. It makes him a layered and interesting character to watch.


The difference there is that Loki isn’t as much of an interesting character to work with. Hiddleston made that brilliant with sheer personality and talent, not because he was given a really interesting layered character to portray. The Marvel TV series have much more scope to give their villains complexity and depth and they’ve been taking advantage of it. I don’t think Tennant or D’onofrio are in Hiddleston’s league talent wise but the characters are so much better. My marvel villain top 3 would have to go Kilgrave, Kingpin, Loki.


I’ll be honest. Outside of some interesting fight scenes, I really wouldn’t care that much about Daredevil season 1 without Fisk.


Give the character of Loki a little more credit. He’s got the almost Shakespearean family issues to drive him—resentment toward Odin, complicated relationship with his adopted mom (forgot her name), hatred toward his actual race, and even the stuff with Thor is at least a little complicated. Compare that to, what, Stane, Whiplash, Killian, Red Skull, Pierce, Ronan, Yellow Jacket, etc. He’s a lot more interesting than any of them based on his motivations, Hiddleston or not.


Completely agree. I loved every scene with D’onoforio - he greatly elevated the material. My opinion of the season would be much lower without his contribution.


Man, I feel weird–like I missed something–the more you guys talk up Loki. He’s good in comparison to a lot of the really bad Marvel villains (e.g., the whole passel of the “leering dickwads who build/steal supersuits and go nuts”), but he was mostly a comically snarky British guy with horns who wanted, uh, humanity to bow or something, right? And when he got his ass kicked, he just went back to cower behind some more-powerful evil-dude for another shot, right? He was nice to his brother once after CGI-Eccleston got red stuff all over Natalie Portman?

I mean, sure, he got one over on the heroes a couple of times throughout, and he pulled off “deliciously punchable face” very well, but I’d hardly consider the portrayal artful or anywhere near the level of D’onofrio or Tennant (and in fairness, with three movies’ worth of screentime, he’s the only other MCU villain who could hope to match their depth).

Basically, definitively not-bad, and usually quite-funny, but solid 6/10 villain at best, IMO.


The explicitly Shakespearean family issues, you mean.


I’ll not begrudge anyone their appreciation of the character. My reaction was that it felt as if D’Onofrio was acting out contrasting scenes, but didn’t manage to unify them and actually create a layered character. Whether it was his fault or the writing, I’m not certain, but I didn’t find the layered Fisk character emerged. More of a disjointed jigsaw made of pieces that didn’t fit.


(I don’t actually know much of anything about Shakespeare)


God, all the shrill conversations between Matt and Foggy are so painful.


LOL Yeah, it was. I remember you writing that they were such “wonderful” characters that you were willing to overlook the film’s flaws. I think I rolled my eyes so hard I have permanent bruises on the top of each eye socket <g>. This stuff always makes forums fun for me, because I enjoy hearing other opinions, even the ones so utterly subjectively wrong.

I think you could make a fair argument that the writers and perhaps D’onofrio himself took the sensitive side too far for that character, but I enjoyed the complexity it added to him. He could very well have been portrayed as a Luca Brasi-type (if memory serves, he became more interesting in the comics over time, but initially was all about his physicality).


You can have your complex Fisk, I’ll keep my wonderful Rey, and we can nurse our respective eye rolls bruises over a glass of incredulity.


Can’t we think they’re both great in their own ways?

And if someone dare utters Mary Sue, so help me god, I will reach through your internet cable to strangle you.


I really like Elektra, and the fight scenes are as brutal and great as ever.


My favorite fight scene so far in season two was in episode 6 (I think), and it’s just a really quick scene on the 13th floor when Elektra and Matt’s cover is blown. It’s just their silhouettes through frosted glass in an office with cool lights flashing. It’s nothing about fight choreography (you can’t even see the actors), it’s just a really beautiful quick shot that looks great.


Finished it after going into it without having seen any trailers, only knowing that Elektra and Punisher would be in it. I can’t say exactly yet how I’d rate it compared to season 1. S1 was off to a great start and then kind of stalled in the second half, but I liked watching it for D’Onofrio’s performance. I thought S2 is more even overall, but also had other weaknesses. That said, there occasionally were parts of episodes that felt a bit a drag, but I was always eager to see the next one - unlike the last third of Jessica Jones, which I finished, but never felt the urge to binge-watch. (See discussion in the corresponding thread.)

The action was once again really well done - and there was more of it thanks to Frank’s and Elektra’s involvement. I’m a bit torn about the one long tracking shot in (I think) episode 4. It was actually done really well, but also felt like “Hey kids, remember that hall fight from episode 2 of season 1 that everybody talked about? Here’s this year’s thing!”. It was well executed and more complex, but also akin your favourite band trying to do another version of its most popular song. Still, great action set pieces throughout the season.

full season

I thought Bernthal was a good pick for the role of Frank. I’m not completely sold on Elektra though, and that’s down to the character, but the actress didn’t knock it out the park for me either. By the end of the season she had grown on me though. I guess I was annoyed by her introducing the love triangle trope to the series even if there never was a real love triangle going on. Of course, she had to enter the picture right as Matt and Karen were starting to hit it off. And, obviously, Karen had to walk in just as Elektra was lying in Matt’s bed. C’mon, leave this shit to soap operas. And then she really screws with the Punisher trial by threatening the coroner, but it’s all good and forgotten after 10 seconds of Matt yelling at her.

Was anyone else initially irritated by the show’s choice for young Elektra? That girl looked very Japanese while Elodie Yung (older Elektra) doesn’t at all. It’s almost like they were retconning the origin story as they were telling it.

I have no idea if S2 referenced specific narratives from the comics, but having the two central boogeymen be called “Blacksmith” and “Black Sky” seemed lame. For a second, after the Elektra origin reveal, I even thought they were the same thing and was wondering what was going on.

This is true for all Netflix Marvel series: half of the drama wouldn’t exist if the characters, you know, were able to talk to each other like normal people.

I liked that Fisk was in S2 as much as he was. It was nice to see him and have his narrative advance. But I was also glad that he didn’t turn out to be the season’s primary antagonist again, the guy who’s behind it all. Again, I went into season 2 not knowing much about who would show up other than Elektra and Punisher - and Fisk showed up at some point in the season where it still could have turned into his revenge plot.

I assume Daredevil’s strict “no kills” agenda is in line with the comics. Still, him yelling it in the heat of the battle and ridiculously resulting in Elektra being so distracted that she gets severely wounded was really stupid. (As was her death scene in the finale.) Kind of like Captain America having issues with Tony’s language as they are heading into a fight. Really?[/spoiler]


It was a decent season. I didn’t like it as much as the first, but I enjoyed the two new characters and what they brought to the mix. The story felt a bit more strained at times, but I suppose that’s to be expected in super hero stuff. However, it felt a lot more organic in season 1 and that’s why it’s such a standout in quality to me. In season 1, aside from Fisk’s nigh invulnerable physicality, everything felt more “action and intrigue” than “comic book adaptation.” There’s nothing wrong with comic book adaptations, but we’ve had a lot of them of late and grittiness mixed with it just doesn’t feel as good of a fit to me unless it’s a story originally born out of that like Jessica Jones. That’s why I think I enjoyed Castle’s story line more than the rest of the season.


The more they let the Hand get weird and supernatural the more hopeful I get for Iron Fist.