Might as well get the Steam version then as I have a very good Air Link setup. I also have the Elite Battery strap so shouldn’t be an issue.
@Lykurgos, any interest in this?
Without again brandishing the P word, I would absolutely not call the head in the toybox experience a gimmick in Demeo. Whenever the standard monitor version surfaces, I fully expect it to fail to wow folks as much of the experience would be lost. Having your face and hands in this real, but not real super deluxe board game terrain while picking up pieces to examine abilities or look around corners for line of sight all while looking up every now and then to see you are essentially in the basement of Stranger Things is quite a modern wonder bathing a solid tactical dungeon crawler. I know it is not everyone’s thing, but VR is a big deal in this game.
@krayzkrok Hey, no fair. I wanted to play! According to the Google machine you are already into Saturday at the 1:00 am mark as I am just starting work of Friday morning. That is so weird to think about. So, I don’t know when is a good time to try over the “weekend.” I am definitely up for more.
I agree with the timeframe needed. If you have a Quest, be prepared to either swap batteries or plug in as a full session will be 2 to 3 hours.
It looks like the next update is “summer”, will be free, focus on the Rat King, and have new cards, environments, and enemies.
Also, I had some early feed back about the classes that I posted on Steam:
Mage:
Maybe the mage should have some sort of second refreshing card that either gives some form of protection (self or others) or a basic ranged action? Right now he seems to have the weakest showing as he just has the 1 damage + stun card. Doing anything else means he has to either burn cards he won’t get back or he is walking up to mage bop something. If he is intended to have less to do each turn, but his cards are amazing (like D&D spell limit) then the current spells don’t seem all that special over other classes. Also, as far as design, that is less fun for the Mage player to sit and decide who to stun then watch everyone else do cool stuff. Maybe his card xp counter could progress much quicker than others so that he gets new cards faster?
Rogue:
I think the rogue is pretty good, I just would like a better interface for knowing when a backstab attack will be a backstab attack before committing the action. Sometimes it is hard to see if attacking from a square is “behind” an enemy. Also I don’t know if it is a bug or not, but is it intentional that the stealth card cannot be played after attacking?
Hunter:
I really like the class. I think it is solid. I think the animal/ charm part of it is a bit lacking. It would be nice if there was a zero cost card option for telling critters to “stay near me” or “attack that”. The Hunter already has hand size limitations as she has two refreshing cards, so I don’t know how this would work. However, I envisioned more of a pet class option rather than what we have which is rats and spiders just wondering the dungeon (often out of sight) that are friendly.
I agree with your assessment of the classes. I feel like I need the Guardian as a standard, just to tank everything. The mage just ends up zapping, after the initial fireball etc have been used, unless they get a recharge later. The assassin/rogue has a lot of utility since it’s almost always possible to get a backstab and do 5 damage to everything. And the hunter’s two range attacks are very useful for staying out of danger. I’m enjoying the strategy of the game, which although nothing like as complex as Gloomhaven, does at least give you moments to breathe and feel like everything’s under control.
I wish summoned creatures didn’t just wander through poisonous gas without a care in the world though.
For those that are curious about the Quest versus PC VR experience this video is pretty handy.
Aside from the standard “wow” factor of any VR boondoggle, how is this different from any game built in a 3D engine? What is Demeo doing that wouldn’t work just as well without VR? When you say “much of the experience would be lost”, what exactly would be lost? Being able to pick up pieces isn’t unique to VR, and “looking around corners for line of sight” sounds like an interface hassle. What makes it a “modern wonder”?
-Tom
I think he is calling “modern wonder” to the VR boondoggle thingie.
Well, VR can certainly be impressive, so I agree there. I’m just curious what it brings to the table for Demeo that’s so indispensable that those of us waiting for a non-VR version will miss out.
-Tom
I really don’t see why someone would want to play the non-VR version of it. I’ve only tried it a little but the entire attraction is the VR aspect, not the ground-breaking gameplay in my opinion. It’s like Gloomhaven-lite really.
To my friend @tomchick
By just putting VR and boondoggle next to each other, I fear you might land in the ‘fail to wow folks’ on standard monitor camp. I don’t mean that in some true believer type cult stigma of the Church of VR or whatever. I just think you might not see the game in the same way. I hope not, as if the same illusion can befall you, I think you might really enjoy the ride. Again, not trying to be culty.
In any case, let me give this a try.
If I recall correctly, in your review about Toy Soldiers (that I can’t seem to track down as the link goes to some now derelict Gamepro to PCWorld webpage) you commented about the experience of being in the toybox. When playing last night with @krayzkrok, I had serious deja vu for real games of FFG’s Descent 1.0 that I had played with real people. I had imagery of sitting at a buddy’s apartment table as we discussed the cardboard map state blending with this digital cathedral of dungeon terrain in front of me and Krayz’s voice in my ear as his avatar hands were gesticulating our tactical options. The nostalgia was bubbling up, and yet, the current experience was more than I would ever have dreamed of so many years ago. Yes, I could “pick up” pieces or “look around corners for line of sight”, but it was more, and less, than that.
I could lean forward or gently alter the angle of my head to see corner peaks of railing alter their angle and have doorway arches lift up before my eyes to see beyond. No map had moved. No interface was altered. I had altered me and the “world” reflected that change. It works brilliantly in this setting. VR in space while flying fighters around stars is nifty. VR has fun elements in a wave shooters. Yes, VR is transformative at times in FPS games, but it is hard to find good ones that step out of the tech demo shadow of VR’s current youth.
With VR, in a table top emulated, tactical board game, everything is immediately present. The experience feeds off of and is propelled by my memory of doing EXACTLY these things. Picking a card from my hand, placing it into the world, but then putting it back in my hand as I fidget with my tactical options do an extra step of brain trickery. Holding a comically oversized beach ball of a die then chucking it into the world to see it bounce off of stairs and walls is definitely a video game, but my brain is confused by the familiarity. Additionally, the proximity and extreme geometry (that is gameplay relevant BTW) of a dungeon diorama is a superior candidate for binocular brain trickery. Certainly I am playing a game. I am. But something else is happening. It is like a phantom limb.
I am in my younger self. I am in my older self. I am in a toybox. I am in that apartment. My head and hands are IN the toybox. In my, clearly, early days of playing Demeo VR, it is like a super hi-resolution, lucid dream of a house I feel I grew up in, but I know I never really lived there.
Sure, 3-d of VR is whatever it is to someone. Some like it, some don’t. I like my 5120x1440 curved monitor that is near 4 feet wide quite a bit. I have a wall of a TV for console gaming. I am not in a cult. I am rather polyamorus about games. I love games of all kinds of shapes, genres, and presentations. I also am predisposed to enjoy the blasphemous mixing of digital and tactile. I found Golem Arcana to be immensely enjoyable. I got quite the kick out of Eye of Judgement for PS3. As you know, I certainly went down the Skylander rabbit hole.
For me, Demeo is doing something beyond those. I can sit here at my desk and look around my office as I see desk edge, monitor legs, water bottle, miniature case. I can repeat the process with one eye closed. Then do them both while moving my head. This is what VR does as a starting point. Binocular digital trickery. Some like it, some think it is a gimmick or perhaps even a boondoggle. Demeo ups the trickery ante and puts me in a familiar experience. It also does this in a time when I have been cut off from such familiar experiences. At which point, a phantom something took over. I expect it will be a short ride. My brain will adjust. But for the moment… I could not imagine trading this phantom limb trickery for a mouse and an oversized monitor.
More than most times you may read this, your mileage may vary. I wished everyone could be IN the toybox as I was. I hope I can stay there a bit longer.
Will the game work on a monitor? Maybe. Sure. I can see it being an afternoon or two’s diversion as a traditional game. It has some meat. More content is needed (VR or otherwise). For me though, I would not give up the VR first impression. It would be like seeing a strongly anticipated film on a 13 inch TV in the corner of the room while a party was going on. Keep in mind, I was not anticipating Demeo. I stumbled upon it a few days ago in the Wallet Threat Level thread. However, I am also me, and Demeo, in VR, is playing on something in my life and my experiences. I am glad I stumbled into this ride.
It’s definitely a fun experience in VR. And how can you beat going through a dungeon with krazykrok’s excellent accent to accompany you?
Hopefully after they implement game saving (wtf??), they’ll have time to put in a proper social component. They really need the capability to have a friends list, then invite or join friend’s games instead of just punching in a 4 digit code.
I appreciate the write-up, @chaplin, but I still don’t see what Demeo is doing that requires or even takes advantage of VR in a way that’s not the exact same with every other VR game: namely, the “you are there” sensation.
Which, sure, can be cool! But I have literally hundreds of boardgames that do that already, and not a one of them requires that I wear goggles. :)
-Tom
Why on earth didn’t I bring my quest along on this trip? Dummy.
Re: why PC has to wait, maybe the move mechanics are more “get grabbing things right once and let humans do the rest?” Or maybe it’s the assets, I assume it’s easier to make a crappy-looking rat for the Q2 than a 2021 quality rat.
There’s already a PC one with different assets. I assume the wait is because they’re a VR studio, so they built a VR game first, and it will take more time to build a pancake interface. But it shouldn’t be super difficult from what I’ve seen so far.
This is a fascinating question. I’d have been very likely to buy this game on any pancake platform as procedural turn-based dungeon crawlers have always been my bag, and I am particularly a fan of co-op versions of the genre. So what does VR add to, or lose from, the experience?
The advantages of physical board-games are that you can see an overview of everything really easily, and your friends are present around the board. Their gestures and commentary are all part of the joy, as are the drinks etc. The disadvantages are that everyone has to be local, and a complex game (like Gloomhaven) takes an hour to set up, you have to implement all the rules yourself, and even then it’s always limited in its 3-dimensionality and visual complexity. You’re probably stuck viewing the whole thing from one side of the table as well, not so useful if there are 3d walls blocking the view.
Non-VR board-game implementations remove some of these constraints. Complexity is no longer an issue. You can probably move the camera around at will. Graphical effects are cool. Your friends no longer have to be local to play. You can still have drinks. But other disadvantages are introduced. Your friends are now disembodied voices. They may be able to ‘ping’ squares on the map to suggest where to go, but their presence is lost. Personally, I think this is a big deal. I was surprised at how important it became to me to know ‘where’ my friend was looking and gesturing as we played together, to watch him physically throw the die rather than simply have the result pop up, to see him pick up his character’s mini in his hand, and move to place it somewhere else. This isn’t vital to the game, but somehow to me it feels like over half the joy of the experience. It’s not so much that “you are there” but that “your friends are here”.
So, depending on how good the VR implementation is, it can surmount all these issues. You combine the advantages of the computer running and presenting the game, with 90% of the delight of in-person friends (old or new) who can join from anywhere in the world, plus in Demeo you’re able to resize and reorient your perspective at will in a completely intuitive way that actually (I think) feels more satisfying than poring over a board in real life. The last game I played for example I was cosily sat back on my sofa in a blanket while able to move a massive game-board around myself with a few gestures, something that miraculously felt more comfortable even than sitting at a computer clicking with a mouse. So what Demeo is able to offer is not just a digital approximation of a board-game, but a way of playing that I think I would choose in preference to any other approach. The only thing I need now is a way to easily drink my wine without knocking it all over the carpet :D
I’m in - I turn into a pumpkin at midnight though. (UK)
Is that Saturday or Sunday (UK)?
I believe he means 9:30pm this evening (Saturday)
I am about to start a game here (unless one is already going). It is 7am in California, Saturday.
Your whole point is well stated. The quote above jumped out at me.
Another thing Demeo offers over a real board game experience is that those pesky real world rules don’t apply. Newton is all jumbled up in Demeo with dice that go “down” in any direction. That is, I can rotate the board state and put it in front of me like a painting or even up above me at an angle. I can even play Demeo while looking up at it on the ceiling like Beth Harmon does in Queen’s Gambit. No drugs are required. It does feel a bit surreal as gravity is still there, but in the wrong direction. This offers really relaxed playing positions which comes in handy as staring down at the dungeon diorama doesn’t feel so good 3 hours in.