I have no problem with not being able to fix everyone’s problems. But:
Giving you the ILLUSION of being able to fix everyone’s problems, and then having it blow up in your face, is a prime example of deprotagonisation. If, at the end, you are left thinking “why the hell did I bother”, then that is just a badly designed resolution, no ifs and buts.
If you can’t fix everyone’s problems, then a well-written quest should leave you with a sense of regret and poignancy at having made the best possible decision (even if it was an imperfect one), not frustration. This is possible.
I resolved it through diplomacy. I talked to Tenpenny and he said if I could convince these six people (or seven, I forget) to let the ghouls stay, he’d let them live there as well. So I talked to those folks, and convinced them that the ghouls are okay (or “hey deal with it, they’re coming here, you might as well leave”). Then back to the ghouls to tell them it’s all good and they can move in.
There is a difference between regret and annoyance.
(spoilers follow)
Cf. the Bringing Down The Sky DLC for Mass Effect. You have the choice at the end of either letting a murdering terrorist go, or trying to take him down. The latter means he detonates a bomb, killing the people he’s holding hostage (you are well aware that this could happen). There is no perfect solution. And yet, by the dialogue choices and reactions of people around you, you are never left thinking “why the hell did I bother”. This is a quest that involves a difficult decision but doesn’t leave you feeling that the best thing you could have done is not get involved.
Why care about karma? Do what you think is “right” for the circumstances. There’s certainly plenty of chances in the game to gain the karma back if you really feel you need to.
I just don’t that there are “invalid” feelings that a game can leave you with.
I don’t see how this situation is irritating; disturbing, yes, pointless, most-def, but where is the irritation, aside from the semi-inconsistent karma hit?
I don’t see how this situation is irritating; disturbing, yes, pointless, most-def, but where is the irritation, aside from the semi-inconsistent karma hit?
The irritation is in trying to achieve a particular solution, the game telling you that you’ve (seemingly) succeeded, and then having it backfire spectacularly.
That’s just silly, leading on the audience is a valid narrative device. Just because it didn’t all turn out the way you wanted to, or you were mislead doesn’t make it annoying.
And you do, you just don’t get to direct every detail. Certain things are just out of your control. If you find that annoying then fine, there’s no point in arguing, but having the end result of every action in a given situation be less than perfect I think is an interesting dynamic and one that really changed my expectations while playing, in a good way.
Since there is more than person playing this game, I used the term audience to refer to all of us.
As said above, I have no problem with things being out of my control. But the game could and should do a much better job of constructing the surrounding narrative in a way that doesn’t leave you thinking “why did I bother”.
If you find that annoying then fine, there’s no point in arguing, but having the end result of every action in a given situation be less than perfect I think is an interesting dynamic and one that really changed my expectations while playing, in a good way.
You… think that the game playing you for a fool changed your expectations in a good way?
Well, I’d counter by saying that you do want to fix that problem, then. The whole point of that scenario is not that it’s supposed to be tough to find a good solution. The point is that there is no good solution. And yes, that’s somewhat grim and nihilistic, but that’s Fallout.
FWIW, I don’t think they give you the illusion of being able to solve everything, either, unless you aren’t really paying attention. It seemed pretty obvious to me that Tenpenny and Roy were both total dickheads who would screw over the other without a moment’s hesitation if you gave them the chance. That’s why I decided not to help either of them. And I don’t think that it sucks that the only ethically satisfying resolution to that quest is to avoid it. In fact, I think that’s one of the game’s strengths. In most games, if content is in there, the game makes you play through it, and you’d be artificially forced to choose between helping Roy and helping Tenpenny, when what you’d really want to do was to tell them both to fuck off. In Fallout 3, you can tell them to fuck off if you want to. It’s not like there aren’t a hundred other optional quests that you could be doing.
Re: killing the ghouls afterwards: at that point, the damage is done. Killing the ghouls is just revenge. I don’t think it’s totally unreasonable to take a karma hit.
Eh, I do. You can snipe every Raider out there before they even see you without penalty. Ditto for the Enclave, almost every supermutant, and so on. Because of their previous (offscreen) actions, the game has tagged them as karma-neutral or, in rare cases, karma-positive. Roy should earn that tag as well.
Yes… I did, thank you very much :P. I don’t see what the big problem with being misdirected is. The term unreliable narrator comes to mind.
I tried to play the game as myself, and when I found that helping the person I thought was the underdog actually turned out to be aiding a homicidal manic, I was pretty floored.
That’s why I mentioned A Fistful of Dollars. It’s the prime example of the protagonist being caught between two scumbag sides, but manages to find a third way. The fact that plenty of other RPGs would make you choose between them doesn’t mean that another solution, more in keeping with the morally grey world of Fallout, isn’t possible.
Avoiding the quest as the best way out is just that: avoiding the problem. It’s a copout. I can say that the best way to interpret a crap novel is to not read it.
Just because you can use an unreliable narrator doesn’t mean you should.
I tried to play the game as myself, and when I found that helping the person I thought was the underdog actually turned out to be aiding a homicidal manic, I was pretty floored.
I found the message to be clear and poignant.
I don’t know about you, but if I, myself, found that someone whom I helped was actually a homicidal maniac, I’d be pretty pissed off.
I’m not seeing what this third way might be other than not aiding either scum bag or just killing the lot of them. You can’t force them not to be scumbags.
You could be pissed off, I ended up blasting the lot of the Ghouls karma hit or no.
Fucking Bethesda making me feel EMOTIONS! Bastards! Really you just made my argument for me.
They are tagged red because they are hostile to you, not because they have done bad things. It’s always a Karma hit to kill anyone that is friendly to you, even if they are dicks.
