Galactic Civilizations 3 announced

I think that the game designers have a vision of how they expect the game to work, of how the player should behave to achieve victory. They set up the rules of the game so that it is possible for someone to play the way they expect. They don’t check if the rules they specified allow for really crazy, extreme solutions.

Now, in some situations it’s just way too difficult. Certain very creative strategies just can’t be foreseen. But I very often find that designers don’t even undertake a fairly cursory examination of the solution space. I think Galciv3 definitely falls into this category. “What happens if I try to maximum this planet’s (industry|research|income)?”, “What happens if I try to maximize a ship’s sensor range?”, “What happens if I try to maximize a ship’s speed?”, “What happens if I try to maximize fighters?”, “What happens if I try to minimize weapon reload time?”, “What if I try to trade stuff I don’t need to supplement my income?”. The answers to each of these questions seem to shock the developers, but they really aren’t crazy, off-the-wall things to try.

I think a lot comes down to the basic mathematical formulas used in the game. Anyone who has played a lot of these games can sniff out increasing marginal returns, and knows the types of formulas that are likely to explode if you are allowed to push a variable too far. Which is not to say that everything should be boring. You want powerful synergies to exist. But the designer needs to know what synergies they are putting in, needs to explore the limits thereof. Frankly I wonder if it’s not possible to have some sort of math analysis package help with this “here are the formulas, find all the feasible local maxima and minima.”

Brad, I really like how you guys reintroduced the concept into the design without just chucking it back in because people complained. But can you elaborate on what you mean when you say anyone using the wheel to min/max is penalized via coercion? I’m not clear what the penalty is for using the wheel, or how the game distinguishes between optimizing and min/maxing.

Dude, if you ever get beat by my drivatar, you should probably try another genre. Like match-3s or Farmville. I can’t imagine my times in Forza ever putting me ahead of anyone who’s actually into the game!

-Tom

Sure. Let me preface this going back to GalCiv II.

GalCiv II had a ton of sliders. We talked about this a lot about how needlessly opaque this was.

So for GalCiv III, we replaced it with the Production wheel. The player can focus what their people work on globally between Wealth, Manufacturing and Research.

During the alpha, we had planned to have the planets have citizens that were occasionally produced every so often. When one was “born” you made them a Scientist (Research), an Engineer (Manufacturing) and Economist (Wealth) OR a Soldier.

So when you loaded up those transports, you could only load up soldiers so picking soldiers had a real cost to the player (especially since soldiers would just hang around until you needed them, you couldn’t just convert 1 to the other).

Anyway, this system never really matured enough to include in the base game so we had to find another way to let players customize planets. UNFORTUNATELY, I suggested to paul that they just let people do a per planet wheel. This was dumb on so many levels:

Dumb because:
(a) Endless, tedious gamey micromanagement
(b) Totally no soul. So gamey
(c) Not balance tested enough. After release, we found players were able to make planets that could produce 3000 research per turn (enough to get most techs every turn from a single planet).

Anyway, we knew it had to go but when we did finally remove it, there was a riot.

To address some of my issues with it we introduced coercion. The idea being that someone working in a research lab one day is not necessarily equally good working in a factory or a bank.

So the more extreme you push the wheel the more points you lose to coercion.

So before, let’s say your economy was doing 3.33 research, 3.33 manufacturing and 3.33 gold per turn and you put your wheel at 100% research it would become 10 research.

Now, if you do the same thing, you’ll get say 7 research but you’ll lose 3 to the effects of coercion which is essentially waste due to the inefficiencies of trying to send all those factory workers and bankers to work in the lab.

It’s still a big boost, but not nearly to the level it was before. And I think on planets, it’s even more magnified.

I like the sound of you scientist / engineer / economist / soldier system you were thinking about. It sounds like it would require some forethought about what the planet should produce. What if the player could specify the ratio between these four people and then when there was population growth the game would produce the person that would bring the ratio most in line? Then you couldn’t just change things on a whim. Players couldn’t change the roles of existing people, but they could adjust how future people are allocated. You could adjust the ratio and then over time your population would adjust towards that ratio.

I wonder if coercion could be used to similar effect. Maybe when you change it coercion is typically high, but the longer it is left unchanged it decreases?

Yeah, I like that concept as well. I like how you have to make discrete one-time decisions about your planets, as a kind of complement to what buildings you put on the planet, but with a slightly different mechanic. Where each tick of population is like a new game piece. And where your population is a unique resource. But I can imagine the challenges it must have presented. Brad, I hope you guys consider coming back to that concept in another game!

As for the wheel, good call on introducing diminishing returns. And also good call on naming it coercion by way of a narrative justification. Nice.

-Tom

I agree - it’s effectively “leveling up” a planet and getting a new attribute point to spend.

I really wish you had stuck to your guns on the original system- any chance it could come back as the core feature of an expansion? Right now, this would be my #1 new system request for any future expansion. Why didn’t it make it to alpha? I understand it’s probably too late for the first XP since that’s in planning, but for the 2nd XP it would be great!

My idea on how it could work:
standard buildings would provide a percent bonus. Adjacency increases those bonuses
capitals, resource buildings would provide +x free and a percent bonus, and adjacency increases those bonuses
soldiers would be idle
Colony/Civ Capitals provide a set number of each, and adjacency bonuses for multiple things.
Farms increase max pop.
Defense buildings provide free soldiers plus boosts to global soldier quality, ship stats, logistics , or planetary defense

Converting a pop to soldier causes unhappiness penalty (creating a new one doesn’t) Drengin wouldn’t get any unhappiness from it. Draftees also hurt the quality of soldiering overall.

convering a pop to another pop causes an inefficiency with that pop which degrades over time (you get less base out of that pop point)- Techs/racial traits/ideology might reduce inefficiency.

Transports can move pop from one planet to another (including non-soldier pops)

Colonist is a general pop, has ineffeciency in all fields, but can be converted at any time and increases efficiency of farms. Your initial pop starts off as colonists.

The rest of the game is fun, I just don’t like the economy of GalCiv. It sounds a bit like Endless Legend, and I could live with a popup every turn telling me to place a new population (or letting the governor do it)

Alstein, have you tried the new planetary wheel / coercion mechanic with the DLC? I’m just curious if you’ve had hands on experience with it and dislike it, or if the dislike is from experience with the previous system and in principle.

Both. It’s still ridiculously cheesy in my eyes. Not as cheesy, but still just dumb and mandatory.

GalCiv III: Mercenaries was announced today! The first expansion for Galactic Civilizations III with New Factions, New Ships, Mercenary Bazaar and more. :)

Visit the Galactic Bazaar and hire dozens of Mercenaries
Discover Galactic Bazaars and choose from dozens of mercenaries for hire! Is that anomaly a little too dangerous to risk your own life and limb over? Pick a mercenary suited for the job and order them to do your bidding. Your bones are fragile, after all.

New Campaign! Lead the Torians to freedom from their Drengin oppressors
Hire mercenaries and use them to help lead the Torians to freedom from their Drengin oppressors in an exciting new campaign. Rebuild your shattered empire from the ground up and thrive in the face of adversity.

Tons of New Ship Designs
Every mercenary has their own unique ship for traveling across the galaxy in style. Speaking of style, there are lots of new ship parts to enhance your own customizations and styles!

Play as an Ancient Race of Warriors
The Arceans, an ancient and honorable civilization of warriors and long-time enemy of the Drengin Empire, make their debut in Mercenaries! The Arceans have new racial traits and abilities and a unique tech tree to boot!

Play as an Old Familiar Race from Galactic Civilizations II
The aquatic Torians are back and ready to fight! …Well, sort of. They’re ready to hire a bunch of mercenaries to help them escape their enslavement from the cruel Drengin Empire. The Torians are at the center of the Mercenaries campaign and also have new racial traits, abilities, and tech trees for you to explore.

More info: Galactic Civilizations III: Mercenaries adds New Factions, New Ships, Mercenary Bazaar and more! » Forum Post by Island Dog

Oooh! Arceans and Torians!

Very nice.

Pretty cool news! I’ll still miss Espionage, but some more unique tech tree designs, ship designs, and two new races is pretty awesome, IMO.

I wonder if the new campaign will be a little more. . . fleshed out. . . than the one in the original release. A series of skirmish maps with pre-placed planets, pretty bad AI, and a couple of semi-unique objectives (and a simplistic tracker for them) was all it was, really. . . and not even a long series of skirmish maps, at that!

It wasn’t bad, mind you, since I actually enjoy the core gameplay loop a lot. . . but it was definitely bare-bones. I mean, I’m not looking for million-dollar Blizzard cutscenes or famous Hollywood celebs phoning in VO work, but yeah. . . any insight there, Stardockians?

Just in case anyone was wondering, like me. :)

I’m looking forward to this. I’ve been wanting to jump back into the game but I decided to wait until the expansion was out before diving back in.

Very nice. I must admit I was hoping for more factions before I got into another big game and really glad to hear two more being added. I also got the nice email reminder that I will get this for free from my initial purchase tier. Yay!

Wow. I have not done one of these in a long long time:

The Tragedy of the Torians

http://forums.galciv3.com/475105

That’s more like it, they gained a big honor!

Like that the Korx still exist in the game.

You mentioned something about a sidegame with some of the cheesy exploits in GalCiv3 removed earlier- will that sidegame have the content from GalCiv3, or will it be more limited in scope like Sorcerer King, or too early to ask/figure out?

Maybe I was (mis)reading between the lines, but I thought he was referring to the upcoming expansion.

EDIT: Yep, sounds like misreading on my part. Personally, I’d be all for putting sanity checks on some things if it makes a better game, so bring on the expandalones.

Side games in the GalCiv universe is something we’re considering. In the near term, we want to focus on GalCiv III. I think people are going to really like Mercenaries.

While the Steam sale is on what GalCiv 3 DLC packs should I grab?

I am really looking forward to the Mercenaries expansion! :-)

Thanks,
Todd