Practicing writing Drudge headlines, in case I get the axe at work. ;)
But, trying to find some details of what the executive order actually did and did not do, since I’ve heard that it will take up to a year, that they haven’t figured out what to do with “those who cannot be tried and cannot be released,” I read this article on Politico:
Seems like some things are not being changed as radically or quickly as a lot of people who are celebrating may think?
Woah woah WOAH
You have a JOB?
Did you mean to say “Seems like some things are not being changed as radically or quickly as a lot of people who are celebrating may think?”
Gitmo is going to be closed.
The date set by the executive order is for a year from now.
There’s a moratorium on military trials at Gitmo until the new administration can look at the processes and evidence that the previous administration used more closely.
Interrogations must adhere to the army field manual, with some vague language about alternate techniques being allowed in specific instances for use by agencies like the CIA. It doesn’t specify techniques, so that could mean “torture” or not.
Black site rendition facilities are going to be closed. Rendition is still going to be pursued, but not extra-ordinary rendition (whatever that means).
And last of all, Gitmo may be closing but other prisons where people are being held indefinitely (like one in Afghanistan) are not.
Mostly, people who are in support of closing Gitmo are glad, but have serious reservations about the steps taken.
How about letting things actually go to hell before throwing yourself into the pit of despair? I mean, what would be the point of issuing an order that made a deadline of next week? Next month?
When they actually don’t appear to be trying hard to get it done, I’ll join you. Right now, you are complaining about results after three whole days. What sort of legal system have you been living under all your life? The one I know can be sort of pokey sometimes.
I’m with Matthew. Clearly they don’t have all the answers, and it will take some work, both within the US government and with other foreign governments to get the answers. BUT they do have a deadline to get the answers now, something that was never going to happen under Bush. So I was very happy to hear of the executive order.
Also, let’s try to keep in mind that Politico are fairly hacky, they of the “How dare Obama come down to casually say hi to the press pool but not subject himself to a random 1 person press conference on the spot.”
See, here’s the thing. Is this really any different than Bush? Obama still reserves the right to “alternate” techniques. My understanding is that despite all the hullabaloo is that only 3 Al Queda people were ever waterboarded. So what’s really different?
Do you actually want to know or are you just being a dink?
Yes. The Obama administration differs from Bush in three key ways here.
They declare certain techniques, including waterboarding to be torture, and therefore unacceptable, then specify a publicly available document that contains the current to-be followed guidelines. The Bush administration was never that firm or transparent about it, and was never willing to so directly acknowledge the possibility that their actions might be constrained by any sort of international conventions.
The Obama administration is starting a process where the remaining prisoners will be subject to a legal process that isn’t, you know, absurd. Both the prosecution and the defense having access to evidence, for example, will be a nice change. The Attorney General under Bush was more interested in protecting Executive power than upholding the Constitution or worrying about human rights or the rule of law.
Yes, a right to use enhanced techniques is being reserved, but those extraordinary circumstances are now being defined as extraordinary, and subject to real oversight, instead of just being folded into an extraconstitutional, extraterritorial morass of banal evil. And the intelligence community is going to have to come up with evidence that the techniques it wants to use actually get the desired results, as opposed to Bush and co, who actively ignored experts who advised that some of these techniques were ineffetive or counterproductive.
Me, I’m just glad we’re getting rid of the fucking overseas secret detention facilities, because I prefer to live in a country that doesn’t behave like Space Nazis in some 1950s pulp sci-fi allegory.
Where? What section of the order? Section 6 says that no other part of the order can affect the obligation of interrogators to comply with a list of laws and treaties, said list containing the Geneva Conventions and the Convention Against Torture. It says “Nothing in this order shall be construed to diminish any rights that any individual may have under these or other laws and treaties.”
I think you maybe might be misinterpreting this in Sec. 3(c):
“…From this day forward, unless the Attorney General with appropriate consultation provides further guidance, officers, employees, and other agents of the United States Government may, in conducting interrogations, act in reliance upon Army Field Manual 2 22.3…”
What this-- in the context of Section 6-- says is simply that the FM may be used unless the AG says it can’t.
And please don’t tell me you read somewhere that Obama is trying something sneaky and just assumed it was true.
I mean Section 5 (e): i, where they order a task force to study whether non-military agencies like the CIA should have access to techniques beyond those found in the Army Field Manual.
No more Global Gag Rule, WOOOO.
(of course, some people are annoyed that he did it a day late!)
According to a semi-named White House official, “That doesn’t mean reintroducing techniques that are inconsistent with the Army Field Manual.”
“Beyond” is a pretty loaded word, and not found in the text. 5(e).i says “additional or different guidance”, which, again, in the context of Section 6-- which very plainly states that nothing will be done that doesn’t follow Geneva or the Convention Against Torture-- says basically that the AG’s task force is the authority when it comes to interrogation techniques not found in the FM. It also makes them the authority on techniques that are in the manual. They are to provide the answer to whether a technique is compliant with the laws and treaties; they are not to provide permission to ignore the laws and treaties.
Cool. I honestly don’t know what “intelligence protocol vs battlefield protocol” in the guy’s quote in the linked article will wind up meaning, the devil is in the details. Happily those details will be hashed out by rational people who give a rats ass about human rights and such things, unlike Bush/Cheney/Gonzo.
I have no interest in getting into a fight over the word “additional” vs " beyond" when I fundamentally feel the Obama administration position is ethically and legally superior and I myself never used a “loaded” word like “sneaky” to describe my feelings about this aspect of the order.
Do you have an actual answer to my question, or are you just being a dink?
Matthew, you’re a bit sensitive here! ;)
Not complaining or whining at all. But, for one example, there were a lot of people who expected Gitmo was going to be shut down very quickly and felt the reasons being given as to why it might be more complicated than that were just Bush babble. See the discussion Jason and I had on that in another thread. There are some people who have been disappointed in what was rolled out - see the comment from the guy representing some of the prisoners in there. Other people are concerned about what the additional techniques more appropriate to the intelligence community that are being considered really means.
It would also probably be more effective to have someone other than Gates, who’s been the top guy in the chain on Gitmo for a couple of years, determine if the treatment in Gitmo has violated the Geneva Convention, if for no other reason than credibility.
Just examples. I think, in the end, most of us are at this point optimistic and have faith in Obama to walk the talk. But I posted the link and comments because I have heard numerous people in various places celebrating Gitmo being shut down with expectations it would be closed by March, etc.