Gods & Kings adds gods and spies instead of fixing Civilization V

@tomchick:disqus When it comes to random backstabbing of allies U.S. going to war with Iraq comes to mind, as does the entire Cold War. I suppose there was some provocation in both cases, but they are also examples of allies (against Iran in the first case and against Germany in the second) suddenly going to war with each other within "10 turns" of the end of the other war. I suppose the first Gulf War had the provocation of an innocent city-state being taken over, but what provocation did the Cold War have? If we continue on with the Russia examples, Germany invading Russia in World War 2 might also count. What about China invading Korea in the Korean War? They had been allies for centuries, then suddenly a regime change in China changed all of that. A similar situation with the whole Cuban Missle Crisis thing.

Though like you said, this happened more long ago, and when I play a peaceful game now, I find I rarely have more than one society ever declaring war on me in modern times if that (and when they do it in ancient times it always seems like they are sensing weakness). I have played 3 full games since getting the expansion pack. In 1 I played as Ethiopia, I don't recall ever going to war, though that was probably partially because I was somewhat isolated on a small map. When I played as Carthage, me and Alexander never seemed to get along , but after I wiped him out I always seemed to get along with most everyone else. Then when I played as Austria, I declared war on everyone, and my military was so powerful they would have had to be an idiot to declare war on me. So I don't see how it is that unrealistic :-/. The way I look at it, the computer is trying to win as well, and it makes sense that some of them might be trying to get a domination victory.

@google-204ff7ee0ecb96cacbb784c7bb4e6287:disqus Of the games I have played I might give you Gal Civ, but that is really it. Age of Wonders I never find the AI to be that good (though admittedly it has been forever since I have played it). Beyond that Fire Emblem and Advance Wars are not at all similar to Civilization. Neither one of them has the complexity of this game, nor things like tech trees or a variety of means of winning, so there is no way they can count.

All of the vanilla Total War games I have played had something really wrong with their diplomacy IMO. Rome Total War was incredibly basic, but admittedly they did that well enough. Medieval 2 Total War had the stupid catholic church making it nearly impossible for me to do anything, even when I had war declared on me. Recently Shogun 2 Total War had the whole, "Let's all go invade our long-time ally" thing that just made winning a pain in the you know what.

Unfortunately your average Civ fan won't admit that. I usually disagree with Mr.Chick's reviews because he sometimes puts these games down for some arbitrary reason such as 'bad writing' in Infamous 2 whilst calling the characters in Xenoblade Chronicles memorable, I do agree with the sentiments made here. The AI is still broken beyond belief.

I like you, Barac Wiley.

I'm not sure that's arbitrary so much as subjective experience. I certainly regularly disagree with Tom about whether a given game (or movie!) has worthwhile writing or characters or is funny, but he isn't making those observations for no reason - they're his experience of the matter.

In this particular case, I suspect I will pick up Gods and Kings eventually because the issues Tom mentions haven't significantly harmed my enjoyment of Civ V, and although espionage sounds disappointing, this way of handling religion seems a lot more elegant than the flavorless, identical religions of Civ IV.

I've noticed in G+K that, more than ever, certain civilizations have a persistent "default" disposition. Simply put, Alexander of Greece is always a prick. Always. Julius Caesar, Moctezuma, and Elizabeth aren't much better, most of the time, but Alexander is the worst.

As for his peace terms, just checking that you do know you can modify (remove) elements of a proposed deal by clicking on items, yes?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Alexander AI refuses decent terms. As above, always a prick. Last time I got into a protracted war with Greece, I had to beat them down to a single city before they finally sued for a real peace ...

Cheers!

I've been friends with Alexander since early in the game and its 1500 AD now. :-)

This.

This game f***ing* sucks. It totally and completly lacks a functional AI. AI IS USELESS in this game!

Good review. This game is total crap because of NO functional AI.

@NeilS
But that's a different story. Abortion debates and such may seem medieval somehow, but religion doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. Agnostics and atheists are just as split about those topics, which is why they remain issues in the modern world. It's beyond religion.

@Barac Wiley
He(Johan) didn't say or imply that (Of course "still matters" is vague, but he also said "medieval age"). Maybe he meant other countries. For instance countries that to a higher degree than the U.S.A. seem medieval. Third world countries are more religious. Poverty and religion often go hand in hand...

Hello, I'm Madea - MA TO THE DAMN D-E-A!!

One of the annoying things about Civ V is the over-aggressive AI. For example, I usually play as a science or commerce focused civilization, but in Civ 5, I was just casually minding my own business, researching and building, when out of the blue one of my "Pact of Cooperation" buddies drops out and he and another civ declare war on me, even though my cities aren't even close to them and I havent done anything to anger them. It seems as though war is inevitable, which I would be ok with had the diplomacy been better. Imagine if you could have conversations with the other leaders, and you had maybe 3 approaches to a question/statement, for example, aggressive, diplomatic and logical (or something like that).
Example:
THEM: We've noticed your army is a little bit...pathetic.

1: Not for long, buddy. You'll pay for that insult.
2: Well, we are more focused on scientific progress and knowledge. You should try it some time.
3: Thanks for your helpful observation.

Civ V was about making one thing work: proper hexagonal map mechanics. All the rest that's wrong with it will have to be fixed in future. As to unit stacking, if board wargames got this right in the 1980s I don't see why it should be done wrong now. While it was a drag to add up "stacking points" it was more realistic than one-civilian-per-tile and one-military-per-tile except of course on sea.... and forcing units to move unpredictably around when overstacked is unfit for a 'god game'. So there must be change here, though the basic idea was to get rid of the endless stacks of junk units thrown in to weaken an opponent (longswords vs. machine guns) which was impossible to convince an AI with no sense of real history not to do. I give the new map, combat and stacking rules a 6 out of 10 for this, they solve the worst problem and they point the way to the eventual long term solution for Civ VI. Which will look exactly like a 1980s high end board wargame. They got the hexagonal maps right, so they're going the right way.

Faith and religion should be distinguished by their viral, anti-national character. A national church can and should exist and it can strengthen an empire but it is also going to be very hard to impose on the conquered, and it is never going to spread beyond your colonies and thrall city-states. Degree to which a faith is identified with an empire ought to be a variable in the game, though the menu approach is fine and offers (as it should) very tough choices. Religions can be basically offensive (weakening enemy resistance by spreading your religion) or defensive (strengthening your combat in friendly cities), and ought to have some minor effects on diplomacy, perhaps improving research and trade agreements (common ethical language tends to make disputes easier to resolve, priorities easier to negotiate) but nothing major. After all the worst conflicts on Earth tend to be between co-religionists or at most sectarians, battling out who are the "real" adherents to whoever...

There should be more you can buy with Faith, not just units and buildings but perhaps advantages similar to those specific to the other civilizations like the Inca's road maintenance bonus - why shouldn't Christians be able to buy this with Faith to make a road to the Holy Land practical to maintain? Or Muslims to make the Haj? Historically that's exactly what they did. That means menu-izing some of the civ-specific bonuses, but why not? They should be expensive and difficult to obtain, maybe limited (roads to one specific holy site or all holy sites or near them?) and obviously nowhere near as much an advantage as having it from turn 1. The benefit could spread, too, so if an enhancer bought such a benefit for "their" religion, those who wanted this benefit could decide to adopt it. Again quite historically valid. Viral spreading and the actions of missionaries and inquisitors and the various buildings can be tweaked (it's hard to understand what happens to your Cathedral benefits after you inquisit the religion that built it out and install your own state religion and build a Pagoda... even harder if adherents of both religions are there). A serious problem with the Faith benefits are they are just not explained in full detail when you hover over them. This is a documentation/interface problem.

Those are unfortunately many. Explanations of workers don't mention that they are tucked into cities for safety when not needed without benefitting the production (weird and not at all valid in simulation terms, historically the rural workforce moved into cities to work in industry and excess urban workers has meant a boom in production and culture but a drop in happiness and in faith, I would say tongue in cheek). The whole "help" section is not properly linked in Wikipedia-style hypertext nor linked enough to real Wikipedia articles on the history (why not? it's not going away) for those who doubt the validity of a bonus. Strange wrongness like the way one toggles "back" vs. "purchase" in the build choice screen, or the way out toggles citizen management in the city screen, or the way it's impossible to find out why you can't buy a certain tile or can't buy one at all in the late game, when all this is easily explained by a hovering one-liner and much more normal tab-type user interface paradigms... inexcusable. Also why "more actions" on units and (worst) focus stealing when turns begin, making you move the unit the computer selected to the place you wanted the unit YOU had selected before your turn began to go.... this isn't bad design, these are *ERRORS*, these are *WRONG* ways for a user interface to behave. As was departing tabs for this odd bars-and-borders-everywhere garbage, using button borders around mode shifting tabs and so on... There's basically nothing in the City or Build screen to keep. Even just finding out what you must research to get to Navigation is annoying. You should be able to select a goal when you select your next research very easily, and let the pre-requisites be handled for you without a lot of fuss. As things are, one has to effectively memorize the entire tech tree.

Spies, well... they had more to do in Civ II and Alpha Centauri - while I like not having to waste time moving them around (just give them a % chance to be caught and be done with it, obviously spies are stowing away on existing ships and fishing fleets and diplomatic missions and need not be on a map) the interface by which they do so is clumsy and doesnt tell you what you need to know - an abstract "potential" isn't as useful as knowing the score of the civ... And why don't spies play some role in sabotaging religious trickery like missionaries, inquisitors, etc. - shouldn't they be able to defend against a few more things than other spies? Spies also could be purchasable by faith, no need to have "espionage" as a separate variable. Most spies in the real world are motivated by ideological reasons and that certainly can be called a form of faith. If spies take over where faith leaves off, why not let that be the player's strategy choice?

The mod interface has no seeming way to indicate formally which mods are known not to interact well... perhaps something like aptitude ought to be used (it's open source, guys.... knock yourselves out). That's going to get worse not better as mods proliferate. As they already have to fix Civ V pre-Gods-and-Kings bugs.

G&K 's AI sucks. I declared war on friendly AI and then I attacked and annexed two of his cities.after it, I offer peace and then the next turn I offer open-border agreement. They accepted.

G&K is fail attempt of re-adding religion back to the game. Game makers know they are extremely wrong for not having religion in civilization game ( Civ 5 ). But they ultimately failed to add it back to the game in G&K. Boooooooo!!!!

Except for the part where Open Borders can't be a Peace Treaty term in G&K.

hell this game pisses me off so much cant play single player cant play multilayer ever since i got gods and kings me and my 8 friends cant play it all of us cant ive opened a ticket with steam to get our money back

The industry needs more reviewers like you.. instead of this happy glossy bullcrap that we're flooded with. Standards have dropped.