That’s the internet for you. ;-)
I’m no expert, but when I was in South Africa there was horrible stories about prison rape and how the ultimate punishment by other prisoners was to be raped bloody by a guy with HIV.
So I think it’s more a function of having prisons like in a third world country…
Are you saying there are no jackers or punks in European prisons?
CITATION NEEDED
European prisons differ a lot from country to country.
A writer friend of mine spent about a year in prison and didn’t get beaten or raped (or at least claims he wasn’t!). He says what really helped was that as soon as other inmates learned he was a writer they would ask him to write letters to their wives, girlfriends, and families for them. This endeared him, and he ended up being well liked. It probably also helped that he’s sort of a big guy. Not musclebound, but a bit burly.
Didn’t we at some point all agree that in internet argument the onus is on somebody to prove something and not on others to disprove it?
Let me know if you find an European prison system as bad as the US. Perhaps in the former Eastern Block - as melak pointed out there’s no such thing as ‘an European prison’ - but they’re like the black sheeps of our little union… and even then I think you have them beat on overall shittyness anyway.
Primarily they cover facility rules and general facility culture. “Don’t stare the lip-curling brute in the eye, it’s a sign of aggression” or “don’t go to the showers alone” or “busy hands are happy hands, why not sign up in the prison library?” kind of tips. I’m not sure how many actually encourage hooking up to avoid rape; probably few as sexual activity is actually against the rules in many facilities. So even if something is generally understood to be a good* idea, it won’t be put in writing by the warden.
- “good” here defined as “least bad”, not as “totally awesome”.
I dunno, I would guess that places like, say, Moldova have worse ones than here.
I had one client who could not wait to get extradited from a European (Greek) prison so he could start doing his time in a federal US prison. Hearing him tell stories from his prior experience, I can certainly understand why. I have never heard anyone tell me that they’d rather do their time in Europe. I assume Hans is alluding to Roman Polanski, but let’s remember that he didn’t flee a US jail for a European one, he fled one for freedom in France. He later fought extradition not from a European jail to an American one, but from his villa in Switzerland to jail.
OK, but aren’t you the one saying European jails are civil and American ones are not?
No?
Those window treatments are more punishment than any man should be forced to endure.
Presumably no one would have asked an attorney to be transferred from a cherry-picked Ikea-sponsored facility in Europe to a federal pen in the US. On the other hand, we might expect for him to have heard from those who want to leave horrible places such as La Sante Prison in France or Diyarbakir Prison in Turkey or Korydallos Prison in Greece.
“Not that EU prisons are nice places, and rape and violence are serious risks in there too, but definitely not to the point giving up preventively so you’ll have the ‘privilege’ of choosing your rapist is considered realistic advice”.
So while I’m sure there are jackers and punks in EU prisons, in most EU countries there isn’t this widespread assumption that if you are going to jail you are totally going to be raped, a thing so common you might be better off choosing some potential rapist to have sex with (and his friends, and people who pay him…) so he’ll protect you from the others. Also in case you do get raped the prison staff is supposed to protect you and to punish the offender. Again, I’m sure in reality they won’t always help, but the general assumption is that in drastic cases like rape they will, unless something goes horribly wrong.
Anyway I have no real knowledge about neither US nor EU prisons, so I guess I’m talking more about how they are represented in the media and the popular narrative than about how they really are. Maybe in the EU there is simply more hypocrisy and sugarcoating going on, it’s a possible explanation.
No, you guys are the ones claiming that widespread prison rape isn’t just an American or American+Third World problem. So the people making the claim about European prisons are the ones that need to back it up -I don’t have to prove something isn’t going on.
(For the record neither Moldova or Turkey are European countries.)
As I said, I’m no expert on other countries prisons and for all I know, Greece might be a hellhole. But when that is said, I’ve never heard other Europeans talk of prison rape as if it was widespread, so unless you show me otherwise, I’ll assume it isn’t.
But here a single prisoner raped would probably make the news.
Again, the EU is made up of vastly different countries with vastly different prison systems. But I’ll say that the impression that prison rape is common to the point where “don’t drop the soap” or “pound-me-in-the-ass-prison” enters the common consciousness is not something I’ve experienced in any European country I’ve lived in or visited.
In the Thai prisons, you can join the Muay Thai prison league and attempt to win your freedom through kickboxing.
I’m actually surprised that it’s not the plot of a JCVD movie.
From The Economist. The article laments how there’s no votes in doing anything about the problem… they could add that it’ll be hard to fix when otherwise sensible people (lawyers even) believe it’s perfectly normal and that it’s like that everywhere.
Let’s say just the “classic”, oldest EU members then. France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Holland, the UK, Denmark, I’m probably forgetting something but you get the idea. Even among those the prison systems are very different but I think it’s fair to say the attitude toward rape in prison specifically is similar between them and different from the US one.
Okay, but that is just an article about the fact that prisoners get sexually assaulted in American prisons, putting the rate at 3 to 4.5% (combining both inmate-on-inmate assaults and assaults by guards; and it appears to be for all sexual assaults). I agree with you that some American prisoners get sexually assaulted and that even one assault is too many. But that doesn’t say anything about whether EU prisons are better, worse, or roughly the same in terms of inmate sexual assault.
No, you guys are the ones claiming that widespread prison rape isn’t just an American or American+Third World problem.
Uh, no. You were the one who started the comparative question, when you said:
And people wonder why when faced with the possibility of jailtime in the US Europeans flee without waiting for the system to determine guilt or innocence…
Up until that point, nobody was discussing EU prisons at all. I have no idea what the sexual assault rate is there, but I would assume that it’s about the same. If you think it’s less (and thus cultured Europeans flee barbaric American justice), I’d like to see some evidence of that.
I’ve never heard other Europeans talk of prison rape as if it was widespread, so unless you show me otherwise, I’ll assume it isn’t.
Wait, that is the basis of your opinion? That because we talk about the problem here and you don’t there, we have a problem and Europe doesn’t? Really?
But here a single prisoner raped would probably make the news.
I just want to make sure I understand you: that since there hasn’t been any such news report, you presume that nobody in a European prison has been assaulted? Because I am thinking maybe you and I should just agree to disagree.
If there is anyone else out there who can find statistics on EU inmate assault, I’d be interested to see it. I couldn’t find any. I guess because it never happens!
It must have at least a couple of pages devoted to Adebisi.