Grognard Wargamer Thread!

My apologies if this is a total newb question, but I read through the rules last night and I’ve got one thing that seems unclear to me. Looking through the errata, though, nothing has ever been brought up, so I’m guessing this is something on me.

My question is about retreat rules in the Saipan game. Here is the rule:

[7.71] In retreating, a unit may initially leave an Enemy controlled hex; thereafter it may not enter an Enemy controlled hex.

Here’s the historical situation in the first turn in question:

My question is this: Can the 317th Japanese infantry retreat if forced back 1-3 squares by a US attack?

As a read the rule, the word “thereafter” confuses me a bit. It makes it sound like there are two possible interpretations:

1 - A unit may initially leave an Enemy controlled hex. After it makes that first retreat move and leaves the hex, it may not make a second retreat move into enemy controlled hex. So… the 317th could retreat successfully.

or…

2 - A unit may leave an Enemy controlled hex, but may not enter an enemy controlled hex in doing so. So… the 317th could not retreat successfully.

Probably relevant…

[6.21] If there are both Enemy and Friendly Zones of Control cast over a given hex, they have no effect on each other; both Zones co-exist and the hex is mutually controlled by both players.

Thanks in advance!

I’ve worked, at a low-ish level (scenario design, writing some background stuff, that sort of thing) with some of the folks who made JTS games in the past. I think I did a scenario in Sicily '43 and a fiction piece for Korea '85, IIRC. Maybe some others stuff, can’t recall. And I was in relatively frequent contact back in the day with John Tiller and Glenn Saunders at least, who were key players. The people who do the research and scenario work for these games are dedicated, and usually very skilled. And Tiller himself is very talented, with a Ph.D. in Mathematics. The issue I have, and others have as well, is the stasis into which all of these games seem to have fallen. Once there was a working base system, there have been only incremental changes over by now several decades. There are different system sets–one for air games, one for naval games, a strategic one, for instance, in addition to the base “Campaigns” engine–but for most of the games there’s just various iterations of that one base system.

And that system is, as noted, long in the tooth. Its primary benefit from the beginning was its ability to simulate, on a computer, the look and feel of those SPI company/battalion-level monster games like Wacht am Rhein, Atlantic Wal, and Highway to the Reich, with their huge maps and gazillion counters. That, and it was built from the beginning to allow designers (and gamers) to use the same base engine with different terrain and unit sets to cover a vast array of WWII and post-war conventional battles, real or hypothetical. Tiller would work with designers to add in additional features needed for specific things, like helicopters in the Modern Campaigns games.

As time went on, though, for a variety of reasons, it became clear that no substantial revision or updating of the core game engine was going to happen. It worked well enough, the feeling seemed to be, and designers were doing good work figuring out how to add at least the semblance of unique features they wanted. But there was simply no profit to be had in doing things like migrating away from Windows XP-era tech, taking advantage of modern GPUs and other hardware, or, most importantly, revising core systems like the AI and UI/UX.

Which is a shame, because I love looking at these games, especially with the modded or otherwise upgraded art work that the community has done. And I love the sheer breadth of the battles they cover. I am a big fan of games where you push around battalions on maps at the one mile or so to a hex scale. But these games are tedious. It’s not even the AI’s ability or lack thereof that is the issue. Even playing solitaire it takes forever to do turns, and against the AI waiting for all the defensive fire and stuff is excruciating. The core systems are archaic and plodding. The central problem for me at least is the lack of dynamism in the games. So many of them feature long front lines of stacked units lined up in huge blocks, and because of the time scale, these blocks seem to inch across the map at glacial speeds. With a day of fighting often broken down into four, five, or more turns, and a lot of slow moving units and often rough or roadless terrain, the front lines take forever to shift.

You don’t get the feeling of commanding a Blitzkrieg, but rather the cold joy of doing the bookkeeping for the army HQ. Combat is lifeless, with results that offer little drama and less sense of being able to influence the outcome. It has the opposite problem that Grigsby and Koger have. In those games, things are bottom-up, and you count rifles and lose X number of jeeps, stuff like that. Silliness. Here, it’s the other extreme. Your units have values, yes, but they don’t really tell you much, and it’s difficult to tell the wheat from the chaff all too often. Combat results are muddled and units will often either endure superhuman levels of abuse without retreating or dying, or they will scurry away at the slightest hint of an attack. And usually, it’s hard to predict which.

There are so many units, and so much surface detail, in these games, that they are a hoot to peruse and to set up and fiddle with for a bit, but actually playing anything other than a small scenario becomes more a test of your endurance than of your acumen. And playing by email? Be prepared to fight a campaign that in real life took a month over the course of, oh, three or four times that many months.

Don’t get me wrong; I have the utmost respect for everyone at JTS, and the folks at the WDS with the Panzer Battles games are making some great progress in revitalizing much of the system, albeit in very specific and limited ways. And the research, OOB, and background work that goes into each game is laudable, and impressive. But nothing can mitigate the fact that it all ends up being crippled by a game engine and simulation structure that is not only last century, but which saps the life out of even the most interesting campaigns.

I would say the 2nd option, by the definition of 6.21 the hex that the 317th is in is “controlled” by the US player (as well as the Japanese player) and he cannot retreat from one controlled hex into another. If retreats of more than 1 hex are allowed then this rule will also prevent the unit from darting out of one US ZOC and back into another one.

IIRC, these games use locking ZOCs? I recall, though it’s been a while, that a unit surrounded like that poor Japanese 317th would be eliminated if forced to retreat.

Right, okay, thanks, that would be my intuition too. The rules do make it clear in a few places that the US infantry also controls the hex the 317th is in at the start of the turn.

Thanks! In this series, only Japanese infantry and engineers may leave ZOCs during the move phase. All other units can’t leave enemy ZOCs, with few exceptions. Then there is the leaving movement allowed on the first retreat square, and then advancing units following a retreat can ignore enemy ZOCs.

I would probably word [7.71] like this then:
[7.71] In retreating, a unit may initially leave an Enemy controlled hex. However, at no point may it retreat into an Enemy controlled hex.

Those SPI Quads were the first real wargames I played. I remember playing Bloody Ridge and Leyte Gulf from that series and Bastogne and Hurtgen Forest from another. Good times.

And i agree with my fellow wombat, under normal circumstances, the 317 would be eliminated if forced to retreat.

Take that with a 30+ year old grain of salt.

Saipan, End of Turn 2 Update

US forces established an initial beachhead by the end of their first turn, but Japanese banzai counterattacks on either end of the beachhead shattered 2 of the 6 established zones, wiped out a US Marine regiment, and left US leadership shaken.

A frantic US second turn saw them gain precious ground near the city of Charankaroa in the east and the beaches to the west.

Sensing a fading advantage, the Japanese gambled everything and poured reinforcements in for a series of attacks to drive the US invasion back into the sea. Unlike the first turn, the die roll gods heavily favored the US forces, though, shattering or stymying five of the six attacks and leaving the battle a fractured line of chaos.

As we head to the third turn, fate has given the US a desperate opportunity to strengthen the western edge of the beachhead, which would allow reinforcements to begin pouring in. The Japanese forces have perhaps one turn left to gamble all on victory, or withdraw and play for a draw.

And the Panzer Campaigns engine was introduced I think in 1879.

Von Verdy ordered Tiller to make him an “Automaton Umpire” but found the results disappointing.

Ihr mechanischer Mann trifft dumme Entscheidungen! Sie sind von Ihren Pflichten entbunden, Herr Tiller!

Interesting article. It has long baffled me that people are so invested in “historical outcomes” in their wargames. If you want to know how history turned out…it’s not that hard! The interesting thing to me is having historical starting conditions and going from there. I used to think that was the interesting thing for everybody!

Yeah but the history versus playability argument there is a red herring. The issue is really that the engine offers so little nuance because it was made for von Verdy that it can’t do both at the same time. And arguably it can’t do either.

https://youtu.be/yfJXd0rSCqo

Mm, yeah, although that’s not too surprising given the extreme age of the engine, right? Which is the thing that literally always comes up first in any conversation about JTS games.

The maps are bitmaps, dude.

For me, playing wargames was mostly about exploring a historical or hypothetical conflict. Usually, I would be reading a book about a battle and find a game that covered it, and then use the game to enhance my understanding of the event. That meant I was really interested in things like maps that corresponded more or less to the ones in the accounts of the battle I was reading, OOBs that matched up with what I was expecting, and some variety of decision making that at least resembled that of the historical commanders in the sorts of options it offered. Given those things, I was more than happy to putter around solo playing out the historical battle or making different decisions and seeing how those might have panned out.

The other thing I always looked for was the ability to put me in a position where I had clear and interesting choices to make. For this reason, I usually liked invasion type scenarios, especially those where I could pick landing zones or what-not.

In most cases, absolute “historical accuracy,” whatever that is, didn’t concern me much. I mean, hey, I ended up with a Ph.D. in history and that cured me of ever thinking there was any sort of “perfect” representation of reality, given that reality in this context was itself contentious. I always did, though, want plausibility, and wanted whatever decisions that the designer made to be transparent, well-supported, and within spitting distance of what most informed observers would consider was historically or hypothetically possible.

With wargames, too, the historical situations being simulated have an effect on these sorts of considerations. Germany isn’t going to “win” in the Ardennes in 1944, so you have to introduce “victory conditions,” which can easily become very artificial, so that winning is a matter of doing better than the historical attackers did. A Bulge game then has to find some scale, scope, or system that makes the player forget about the broader futility of the whole damn thing, and focus on the nitty-gritty of maneuvering Panzer Lehr or whatever. Likewise, other than arguably for the first six months of the war, the German invasion of the Soviet Union probably had a snowball’s chance in hell of actually succeeding in the “the USSR surrenders unconditionally” sort of way. Probably this is one big reason why designers bombard you with minutia and details when doing large-scale Eastern Front games.

Then there are battles that offer more genuine (as opposed to manufactured) opportunities for alternatives to history. France 1940 is one I think. It’s devilishly hard in most games that cover Fall Gelb to reproduce the German successes, which causes its own set of problems. In this case, designers have to introduce rules to model the intangibles that scuttled French hopes, because on paper they should have wiped the floor with the Germans, or at least mounted a solid defense. Other battles where one side or the other did something truly head-scratching, or suffered a freak misfortune, pose issues as well. How does a “pure history” approach handle things that are not easily modeled and for which there is and can be little empirical data? It can’t, except by enforcing what actually happened, which in turn makes the game static and unengaging all too often.

The number of major WWII battles that offer really balanced opportunities for both sides at the high level are few and far between, largely I think because no commander wants an even match! When you get a real nail-biter, someone was forced into it or the fight came about nearly by accident. Otherwise, thee battles are by design severely lopsided.

History…playability…choice. Interesting talking points, but if your materials can deliver none of them, the real debate lies elsewhere.

Well, I wasn’t speaking specifically to any particular games, just games in general. Though I would suggest that the HPS/JTS games offer some good OOBs and maps at least.

Gif saved

In fairness, at the time, it wasn’t a bad way to approach maps and map creation.

Putting on my historian hat, which allows me to arbitrarily divide the world into opposed pairs at will, I can assert that there are two ways computer wargames get made. One starts with traditional wargames, and envisions computer wargames as digital versions of existing map and counter games. The thought process starts with designing a physical game and figuring out how to make it a computer game.

The other path goes in the opposite direction. It starts with people who are versed in making computer games, who envision using those skills to make digital wargames. The thought process starts with principles of computer game development, and figuring out how to best use those principles to make a digital wargame.

I would argue that most computer wargames come from the first approach, and comparatively few from the latter. JTS games are like this. This sort of game can easily be visualized and implemented in physical form; the computer is really not conceptually necessary. Games that take the other approach include things like Command Ops, or Command: Modern Operations is another. While both clearly draw from board or miniature game ideas, they are games that simply cannot exist in hardcopy form.

We never really have reached that Nirvana we hoped for back in the 1990s, that place where computer game development chops and wargame design skills came together harmoniously to create the perfect wargaming experience. Instead, we have two mostly parallel tracks that, asymptotically, approach each other but never quite merge.