Hey, thanks for taking one for the team. I really appreciate your writeups on this. I do hope they fix it because the original was so well done, it’d be a shame if they are taking a step back.
They certainly have the right attitude. Here is a quote from the 1.0.4 release notes (Steam :: Dungeon Warfare 2 :: Update 1.0.4):
As an avid fan of tower defense games, I believe the true fun of tower defense games comes from formulating one’s own strategy. Not to mention the sense of accomplishment that comes from achieving a high score by a series of carefully optimized moves.
In tower defense games, where the enemy has no means to adapt to a certain strategy, a single best solution always exists. But the solution is obfuscated by many layers of depth so it’s not apparently visible, like a jigsaw puzzle. Part of the fun comes from using your own pieces to create a good enough solution. And comparing your solution to other’s. But when a simple spamming is the best strategy, it takes away the sense of accomplishment from players. In the current state of the game, the most apparent solution to me was nerfing the trap spamming.
And to be fair, there does seem to be a fair amount of praise for the game. I may have just fallen victim of finding a broken strategy. I found one strategy to get through the entire game (darts, lightning), and then found an endless strategy that got me to wave 2000 before I quit (teleporters). Adding runes had no real effect on these strategies. Both of these have been nerfed now, but I’d have to start over to see the changes because I’m too high a level.
@peacedog did you get further and still like what you were seeing?
Edit: Came across this on the steam boards from the developer, Groquest:
The general reception is that the game is too easy and unchallenging. Indeed, we sought to tune the difficulty down from the original. But the main issue here is that the player’s level - firepower curve is much steeper than the tier - monster difficulty curve.
I’ve been trying to match the two curves by decreasing the steepness of player’s firepower curve, but it seems to annoy the players when their favorite trap gets nerfed so I’m thinking of another ways to iron out the issue. I must admit that the game needed more play testing and balancing. We’re working very hard to make up for the mistakes. We’ll be releasing a major balance change update soon. I hope it will make up to the disappointment.
Sort of.
So I wasn’t very far in before, I’ve done several dozen missions and I’m now, hmmmm, level 45ish? I still haven’t done a lot of absurd-rushing because I can’t always get to a point where I’m ready for it yet, so no lootsplosions. But yeah the trap damage in general is too high. It’s not just the items although they are a major factor (to wit, the unique dart trap item I have gives +79% damage and a juicy bonus to reload; my harpoon trap item gives an even more absurd amount to damage).
You said thast with lots of runes harpoons seemed ineffective. For pulling, probably, because of the weight modifiers. but the right most upgrade gives a big damage boost to it and resets the trap on a kill. I’m finding them to be effective killers, especially if you grab more damage in the next upgrade. Never mind the pulling; they aren’t doing that very often because they are killing 90% of the shit they see. At two upgrades, thanks to my items, mine are doing like 300 damage a strike + other damage if they get ripped out. It’s absurd.
That + lightning is enough to carry past many levels. I’m going to start trying to use harpoons anywhere (I was just using them when there was environmental reason to). I’ve mostly used lightning (so good), harpoon, dart, and bolt. All very effective (although I lack fancy artifacts for bolts and lightning; the latter don’t seem to need them heh).
What I was hoping for, but am not seeing as per your observations, was more interesting maps. It’s not that there aren’t interesting maps, but they’re nowhere near the level of the original. Even the destructible walls, and the “I’ll just drop a plank over this lava/water” guys, don’t have enough of an impact in terms of altering the environment. And if I know the plank carrying guys are coming I pack shockwave traps and un-upgraded they render that issue moot anyway.
I’ve seen a little reason to vary tactics but not to the degree the first game gives you. Which is too bad. I’m all for tweaking numbers to make things less dramatically amazing, but it does need some better maps to make all of that come home.
That having been said, I still like the game. I like the upgrade system better this time around, I like the skill trees. I would be for going back to the old game’s rune system. I could take or leave items (I mean transmogriphication is really only for getting rid of shit you don’t want. Whatever you wind up with will no doubt be solid but it seems like you’ll slant towards using uniques and things that just bolster e.g. your preferred damage type).
I just wish it had better maps (I would rate the designs as decent, but again it’s not on the level of the first game) and was more challenging.
I picked up X-Morph on the PS4 with the sale - thanks for the recommendation. Definitely fun so far though those tanks sure take a pounding. I was hoping there’d be a way to improve each of the weapons over time but, unless I’m missing something, it’s all on/off choices basically.
So this is on sale today y’all:
Would y’all recommend it?
I would. It’s a different take on the genre, and I found it pretty darn hard, but you can go do other maps & come back after you’ve had a few upgrades.
Yeah I enjoyed my time spent with it, you engage a bit more in attack mode ( as a top down shooter of sorts) than I’d like, but the tower defense stuff is fun.
Just a note that Kingdom Rush Origins went live today on Steam. I’ll report back later on how it compares to the other two!
I’ve just played the first level. So far, seems like the same as the prior games. Not yet sure if there is something new later.
I completed the first stage through to the end boss, and while the recipe is very familiar, this is closer to KR: Frontiers in that you level up your hero and tower upgrades operate the same.
Where they’ve pulled a rabbit out of the hat is the foes they unleash in later levels. They’ve dug deep to more irritating foes that will cause you to rethink your strategy. Hyenas that can’t be blocked, witches that when they die, their ghost goes to a random tower and disables it for a while, rolling huge spike things that have a ton of health & tear through barracks like they’re butter, flying enemies that continue to increase in numbers if you don’t whittle them down (similar to the fire demons in KR).
The towers are all different as well, with many different powers that I’m still learning. Archers that can mark an enemy for increased damage, mage towers that distribute more AOE when killing an enemy, and barracks that all offer more variety and changes from the other KR.
There is an early level, called Redwood Stand, (which btw, they continue their merciless adoption of star wars and is basically the ewok camp) where on the first playthrough, very few upgrades, I couldn’t 3 star it. When I came back later with more upgraded towers and hero, it wasn’t too much of a problem, but I do like to judge it while on a fresh hero & few upgrades. 3 other levels gave me fits on the first playthrough as well - on normal no less, so I think it’s pretty challenging.
Somehow I bought so early that my 20% off coupon didn’t come till later. If anyone wants it, PM me and I’ll give it to you.
So who is taking the bullet for the team?
I just want online Comet Crash.
Edit: hmm, the sequel came out on PS4 with online multiplayer! I don’t own a PS4 though…
The original was so good but local only.
I am just replaying Sanctum 2. I find the difficulty of a map varries a lot though.
I finished up Kingdom Rush Origins. Started trying to clear the achievements, but with no progress indicator I have no idea how close I am on some of these. I got 100% on the prior 2, so either they made some of the achievements more grindy or I don’t have the patience for it right now.
Fine game, but I don’t know if I’ll buy another one unless they change it up a bit.
Unleash doesn’t look great to me. Maybe geared toward multiplayer? I had it on my list to check out when it got released, but I’m not seeing anything that would get me to spend time with it. If anyone pulls the trigger, I’d certainly be interested in hearing more about it.
Ok guys, @kael will be here soon. Stardock will be announcing what it hopes to become the ultimate tower defense game later this year. :)
It’s going to be an early access game so that we have lots of time to evolve it. This thread is…well, frankly, a godsend. ;)
Would be neat if there was a way to design your tower’s powers and have various combos. Then have a research tree that allows different techs each game so the combos are not always the same.
Yeah, I tried the demo out on the Xbox, and I’ve found that while the idea of a shooter with tower defense sounds good in theory, I greatly prefer my tower defense as a chess match and the shooter/character control actually detracts from my enjoyment.
Seriously, it is. I’d never have noticed a lot of good games without it.
I am making a tower defense (desktop only) called Tower’s and Heroes. It mixes RPG elements with tower defense ones. I’m not sure it can really compete with the stuff mentioned in this thread (hopefully i’m just being modest but I am still fairly inexperienced).
If you want you can see screenshots and a link to the demo here:
https://nostalgiaforge.com/Towers-and-Heroes/
If you do try it then feedback and suggestions are appreciated. Warning, progress will probably be cleared when it is released.
Also, I saw a lot of interesting tower defenses I never heard of in this thread so i’ll have to give a few a try! Excubitor in particular sounded really interesting.
So what is the definition of soon. Curious what you guys are up to.