Is the Last Roman DLC for Total War: Attila too limited, too small, and too real?

Total War: Warhammer is the pinnacle of what Creative Assembly has been doing for over 17 years. But with orcs. That last bit is important. A lot of the appeal of this Total War is that you have monsters and wizards and spells and ogres and things that fly. You have stuff you never had in Total War. You do things with them that you never did in Total War. You capture elf strongholds and sneak through orc tunnels and stave off the taint of chaos corruption. You equip legendary magic items, level up various flavors of fireball spells, and build a reliquary so you can recruit ghost soldiers who ride on ghost horses. Queue up some waypoints for your dwarf gyrocopter to drop bombs on hapless minotaurs.


This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2017/01/16/last-roman-dlc-total-war-attila-limited-small-real/

[quote]
The eagles! Oh, the eagles! Surely Tolkien understood that us Americans at the center of the world would thrill to see our national bird saving the day.[/quote]

I love this bit so much.

What is the remaining 1%?

Man, this reminds me I really need to play more Attila. Why oh why cannot I save during the prologue?!

After reading this, I wonder: have the Total War games ever been more than fantasies, beyond their attires?

I think that the popular Japanese setting of Shogun 2 is not only so exotic it verges on fantasy, as Tom said, but that it is fantasized to begin with, especially since it is relying on the sources Japan has been feeding the Western world in some archetypal feedback-loop. While I won’t ask for a game to discuss what the wars between the countries of the Japan Empire may have been about, none of that is even slightly focused on. That absence of thesis may be considered open to interpretation, but I just feel it is edulcorated history.
After reading this article about Attila’s DLC, while admitting I do not know squat about the historical period, I get that same vibe. Those historical toy soldiers may have some mass, but I get the impression, now, that they seem to lack much weight.

I love your food for thoughts articles, Tom! Although I doubt what I am typing is making any sense in regard to them.

If anything Atilla tries to put flesh on very superficial bones. There is a ton of nerd content in Atilla, more than most if not any previous Total War series.

The Game of Thrones reskinning English/European history and Tolkien’s long-ass story about personal obligation in the face of enormity.

-Tom

No more and no less than any wargame without elfs.

I don’t pretend there’s any deep insight in the Shogun model, but I think the Shogun Total Wars neatly model the unique structure of the sengoku period in Japan, when lots of squabbling clans coalesced into an empire. It’s certainly more historically specific than, say, the typical Civilization strategy game where one settler unpacks a city that then grows into America.

[quote=“Left_Empty, post:5, topic:128050”]I just feel it is edulcorated history.
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I was pretty sure that was a typo, but since I couldn’t figure out what it was a typo for, I Googled it and learned a new word today!

-Tom

I’d argue against that, first because a good part of your article is about defining fantasy and I take it you make fun of me using the word in the way you discussed it - unless I really didn’t understand it, which is at all possible!

I wasn’t discussing the quality of the game depending on its relevance to whatever academic standards, but whether the apparent consensus of Shogun 2 and Warhammer being the better games amongst the players was because of the exotic settings (or total lack of historicity, in the second game’s case), and the fantastic takes on them.

While to me, that period is not the hagiography of an empire rising, but the history of a society fighting itself in a desperate attempt to prevent its crumbling. It might not make for the greatest gaming power fantasy (here is that word again!)…
And you seem to forget on purpose that America has access to the mall in Civilization.

Well, I was trying to be pithy, but my point is that wargaming is going to have some degree of abstraction that some people might label “fantasy”. As in: it’s a fantasy that a leather tunic has an armor value of 5 and a plate cuirass* has an armor value of 10. I thought you had something in mind like that, maybe regarding stuff like the morale model, or the numbers of figures in a unit, or the relative values of Huns vs Gauls or something. I thought you were implying that all Total War games are fantasy, so I was just saying that’s true of all wargames, whether they’re about janissaries or orcs.

But if you really think the Total War games never “been more than fantasies beyond their attires”, I would disagree strongly. Creative Assembly has an obvious fondness for history, and it shows in their games. I would argue, that, yes, they are more than fantasies in that history is more than fantasy.

Does that make sense? I suspect I might be misunderstanding you.

-Tom

* It only just now occurred to me how that word sounds out loud…

I completely disagree with the first half of the article, mostly with the premise that stories about real things are weightier than stories about things which don’t exist. A good fictional universe by its very nature is a better platform for storytelling than the real world—it is designed for the sole purpose of telling good stories. The real world is much more haphazardly arranged.

More concretely, I’ve played a lot of Total War over the years. I’ve logged time in all of them except for Napoleon and Attila. I’m a bit of a weirdo in that Empire is one of my favorites, but that’s because I’ve always loved the Age of Sail, and all the associated land wars that made it possible. I played campaigns as Russia and the Netherlands, and at best, it was a fun hypothetical. I never felt all that attached to the goings-on.

In Warhammer: Total War, though, I have. Bearing in mind that I do almost no story-based gaming these days, I was nevertheless shocked at how much emotional impact my dwarf campaign had. I’m having a hard time even putting it into words. I went from sheer obstinate delight at thumbing my nose at humans trying to draw me into their petty power games, to vaguely genocidal delight at taking down the greenskins once and for all, to concern at the vast stretch of ruins in the north of human territory, to despair when Chaos turned up right then. We marched off to war, a last, doomed alliance of man and dwarf, standing together as the men and dwarfs of old.

It was gripping in a way that no other Total War game has ever been. Maybe that’s because I’m not as familiar with the Russians and Dutch of the 18th century; maybe it’s because it’s easy for me to put myself into a dwarf’s shoes. (We’re temperamentally similar.) Maybe, if I were more of a historian, the real-world games would feel weightier to me.

I think that’s the point I’m getting at, though: the real world doesn’t lend itself to the same sort of story generation because the real world is bigger and more complex. That doesn’t mean the real world makes better stories. It just makes more complicated ones, and ‘more complicated’ is an entirely different axis on the story graph than ‘good story’.

It might simply be because dwarves > *

This was a review chosen by your Patreon supporters, Tom?

No disrespect intended, but I simply don’t understand how anyone can string those words together to say what you just said. You might as well tell me water isn’t wet. I guess you and I represent the opposite ends of the spectrum in that regard, which is cool. But if this issue were politics, one of us would be a Trump supporter and the other would be a Clinton supporter! :)

Correct! Up next is a review of a TV show called Catastrophe which – to my initial disappointment – isn’t a post-apocalypse thing.

-Tom

By way of clarification, the real world has excess material in between the juicy bits. The hero’s journey (for instance) hasn’t survived because it’s the most complicated story—just the opposite. It’s still around, and different tellings of it are still interesting, because it’s the distilled essence of everything that makes stories from the real world compelling.

Also, water isn’t wet. :P

Reading that review was a treat.

My first interrogation was a sincere one, simply!
I have only played the Shoguns as far as TW goes, and since nobody seems to enjoy the Roman and Medieval settings as much - at least from what I’ve been reading or hearing over the years, criticizing the mechanics or their lack of, etc… - I am wondering if the creator’s fondness for history* isn’t just a boulder they are carrying, while their games become more enjoyable when they just give up on that, whether it is because they are more inspired in the mechanics, or because the player is less annoyed by the eventual inaccuracies.
I am saying nothing very new; sorry for not being clearer.

*borrowing words for the sake of clarity!

That’s ok, because I am.

If having to encamp every army at turn’s end over and over is an oversight, in Warhammer in the campaign Chaos has to actually watch that little movement bar and only move 3/4 or less a turn, because they can only move and encamp if they have more than 1/4 of their movement points left.

Warning wall of TL:DR below
What strategy games do in general is create drama through geography and economy. In that sense Warhammer may well be just as effective a set piece as something historic. But history describes not only what was but what could have been; the Empire fanfiction where they beat the Dwarves is great and all, but even Games Workshop actually blew up the Warhammer world and then just remade it all over again, because fantasy. The sweep and drama of history appeals to the imagination because we could have been there ourselves if but for a roll of the die and a couple thousand years too late.

But what Attila does, uniquely i think in the Total War genre, is actually add its own two bits, its own take, to a period of history that is growing dark in every sense and whose activities and consequences are in no ways set and decided by historians in the way we know about the Julius Caesar or the Sengoku Jidai. It’s piecing together the greatest historic whodunnit of all; who or what killed the Roman Empire?

The game is chocked full of nerd detail. Did you know there is a short wall extending from the Capsian Sea to the east on the northern Persian border on the Grand Campaign? A Great Wall of Persia, you say? Why, indeed, yes it is (sort of). What about the Marib Dam? in northern Yemen. Yes, you get to play with the Marib Dam if you play as Himyar. You can play as Axum - freaking Axum! Are you joking? Who but the most nerd of nerds would find playing as the Hephthalite Huns interesting?

In Attila we get something like the best shot at having a cinematic narrative yet. Clearly Attila looms large in the lists of causes of Rome’s collapse. But as is clear, add to that corruption, climate change, migrating German tribes, a resurgent Sassanian Persia that will dominate the Middle East for the next four centuries militarily and culturally, religious turmoil and unrest, and the growing parasitic expensive of maintaining religious institutions just at the time the money is most needed manning the walls. There is a phrase often used about ‘environmental’ storytelling in games, and this is full on display here. While the towns are made of brick the marble monuments of their predecessors, with shattered visage lie half buried. The lighting is low and gloomy and red. Weeds are growing between the cobbles of the famous Roman roads. Rome is a civilization on the decline, it’s raining, and the barbarians are on the horizon. Rome’s neighbors are growing in strength and importance and even as a culture and language Rome is fading. And there in the deserts of Arabia glowering calmly like a prophecy is the only city on the map to start pre-destroyed; Yathrib. Poised between a Jewish Arabian kingdom to the south, a Christian empire to the north and meddlesome Persians on the other side of the world. Is this storytelling or explanation? Rome 2 asks “quo usque pro roma ibis?” Attila asks whether Rome is worth saving or is it the story of those who took its place?

And the legions? The legions look nothing like the Legions of old. They look drab and businesslike and serious and outgunned. They also look much less familiar. Fur hat wearing cavalry? Monocolor tunics? We’re in a strange and uncomfortable time that haven’t been popularized - Late Antiquity. A time that took, depending on where you stood, four hundred years, as long as Rome had an empire to begin with.

That’s what makes the Last Roman so special. What now does it mean to be Rome or Roman? Greek Romans, invading Italy, after Rome fell? Who are these guys? The troops are new in the Last Roman and they look even more medieval than ever, but still not quite. Foederati infantry? Steppe Horse Archer auxiliaries? Barbarian infantry and barbarian cavalry? Is this some army of Condottiere or a Roman legion? As history turn out, it’s more the former than the latter. There are no legions anymore (and i have real, significant doubts about the so called Limes troop numbers). Belisarius is reconquering Rome in the name of Rome with a gaggle of Gothic, Thracian or Armenian infantry, some 600 Hunnic bow cavalry, and some mediocre “Roman” troops. This general no one remembers (aside from the nerds) took this menagerie of troops all the way to the Alps and nearly restored the Empire. As history goes (or history as according to Procopius, the guy in the opening cut scene whispering in Belisarius’ ear) he would have succeeded, if not for the meddling interference of Justinian. At one point Belisarius was offered the crown of the Ostrogothic Kingdom and an offer to become Western Roman Emperor. He accepted - only to be able to duplicitously arrest the Gothic leaders and ship them back to Constantinople. We’re entering a strange time where a Roman Empire recaptures the Imperial Capital since of the 400s of Ravenna and maintains a garrison there yet has no actual power or authority. It would be like America falling apart and then a hundred years later New England recaptures Washington DC, declares themselves to the “The United States” and have little to no authority past the Appalachians for two hundred years. The Last Roman does a decent enough job modeling this confusing time with the tools it has. Making Belisarius a pawn of the court, of being asked to do the impossible, of having the rug pulled out from under him. Practically speaking once you get to a certain size for some reason the Ostrogoths kind of collapse and Italy falls surprisingly (and maybe disappointingly) easily ; it seems the best part of the campaign is the first half. But bless CA for actually going all in on the nerdiness and just making even more nerd history.

So that’s the power of historical narrative and the ability of a game to bring a long lost period of history to life, edifying, fun and even educational.

Well, the conventional wisdom is that there are only seven stories, right? I’m pretty sure the hero’s journey (aka Star Wars) is one of them. But the reason these stories endure is because we all understand them. They are either direct corollaries to our experiences (boy meets girl), they’re an expression of our anxieties (man vs nature/supernature), or they’re metaphors (the hero’s journey as an allegory about coming of age).

As basic stories, they don’t have much weight. I can’t think of anything drier than that silly Joseph Campbell wheel with the labels about “call to journey”, “divine aid”, “return to home”, and whatever. Way to suck all the fun out of Star Wars, dude!

So these stories – whether they’re hero’s journeys or boy meets girls – have to be given some culturally relevant context in order to have power over us. Take boy meets girl (which is relatable partly because it’s a biological imperative). Whether it’s Shakespeare’s prose, Leonard Bernstein’s snappy tunes, or Baz Lurman’s flashy cinematography, Romeo and Juliet endures not because it’s simple, but because everyone fundamentally understands it, and can see himself or herself reflected in the story.

So why would you make it about unicorns falling in love with dragons and having to hide their forbidden love? I mean, I know why. I’m sure there’s an audience for that somewhere. But that’s going to be a hurdle for me because it’s going to remove it even further from my experience, it’s going to rob it of its relevance to my life. The way that story has power for me is to bring it closer to reality, to express it with things I understand. One of the reasons La La Land is my favorite movie this year is that it’s an exuberant boy meets girl set in the context of an actor’s life in Los Angeles, which is very real to me. Whereas the fantasy of a musical is normally an obstacle for me – I don’t really like or “get” musicals – the setting is literally right outside my door, in a place where I spent years of my life. Both La La Land and the hypothetical unicorn/dragon forbidden love are basic stories, but one of them uses things that exist, the other uses things that don’t exist. For me, the latter loses a lot of its power.

And that’s how I feel about simulating war. Orcs bashing the fuck out of zombies is frickin’ awesome! But it’s pure escapism. Brilliantly animated, colorful, lively, and meticulously designed escapism in Total War: Warhammer. But the far more meaningful stories I’ve been playing about war lately have terrible graphics, godawful pacing, and an absolute lack of spectacle: it’s a board game about the plight of the Comanche as European colonists and then Texans and then the United States closed in around them. It’s very real to me. I am keenly aware that these are actual things that happened in my country, that helped shape the place where I was born (I am a native Texan). The Comanche boardgame has echoes because it existed, whereas the battles in Total War: Warhammer are just pleasant noise.

Anyway, I understand where you’re coming from, and I don’t mean to contradict you to say you’re wrong or anything. This is, of course, all very subjective and I don’t write all this to disagree with you. We each have our own thresholds for how we relate to things, and I think it’s really cool that the dwarf campaign worked so well for you. That’s a real thrill when a story pays off like that. But I can’t help but think somewhere out there is that same story using actual people, and that if you heard it the right way, it would be far more powerful than the dwarf version.

And, and you got me on the thing about water being wet, didn’t you? Water itself probably isn’t wet, but it makes things wet. I should have known better than to use a water comparison on someone with your username. :)

-Tom

EDIT: Egad, wall of text! I didn’t mean to do all that.