Lawyerly law stuff that's interesting


From your source:

The rates of depressive symptoms (51.4% for transgender women; 48.3% for transgender men) and anxiety (40.4% for transgender women; 47.5% for transgender men) within the current study far surpass the rates of those for the general population.

Again, you are posting sources which don’t really agree with you. 51% is certainly not a “huge majority” much less “astronomical.” Further, having depressive symptoms is not actually the same as having a mental illness. It just means that you demonstrate some symptoms which coincide with mental illness. That’s an important distinction.

Your source absolutely does not support the notion that, in your exact words, “a huge majority of transgender people suffer from mental illness.”

More accurately, it would be stated that transgender people suffer from certain symptoms at a rate which is higher than the general population, but from a purely logical perspective, this would be expected. For most of history, transgender people have been ostracized and told that their views of themselves are “wrong”. That would, naturally, create a major source of stress and depression for them.

Further, that specific study does not at all suggest that their transgenderism itself is a mental illness. It’s talking about how to treat them for those symptoms while they undergo their transition. That implies that the doctors writing it do not view their transgenderism as an illness at all.

You would need to provide such evidence.


Anxiety also forms the basis of mental disorders, it’s not just depression. And yeah, it’s astronomical.

Not much research in this area, but here’s one:


Yes, this is what I’m saying. I agree with you that:

I would simply advocate that hospitals not be pressured to get involved in what could amount to self-harm (hormonal therapy or surgery) in some cases.


Dude, I’m just reading the sources that you yourself are presenting. You presented a rate of 51%. That is not astronomical.

Again, this does not support your statement of:

I mean, I’m just pointing out the obvious here. It literally does not say what you thought it said.

It says that, after gender re-assignment, that the suicide rate was higher than the general population… not that it went up compared to transgender people prior to surgery.

This is a dramatically different statement, even though it shares many of the same words.


I take your point that the study just shows the suicide risk remains, not that it went up per se.
The idea is that the surgery isn’t always a great treatment, and more care should be exercised – this seems compelling:

Compared to the general population, it absolutely is.


This sort of thing feels inevitable nowadays. A poster comes in with a right wing perspective, starts off a bit wonky, maybe even legalistic, talking policy, details, etc., but then you eventually find out that there’s some thing that just really grabs their attention. Some issue, almost inevitably race or gender or sexual orientation or religion or men’s rights, or etc., is a real focus. Makes you wonder whether the legalistic policy stuff is just rationalization for a deeper sense of alienation from liberals.


If this is a personal attack on me, I’ve enjoyed posting here about the recent Supreme Court cake decision, some boardgames and laptops, and net neutrality, so I have no idea what the basis for the personal attack is. That it was all a cover for my deep-seated hate for transgender treatments? Fascinating!


I’ll freely admit I’m solidly in this camp.

If someone wants to be called “they” I’m fine with it, because it’s part of the language. I’ve been a proponent of using they and it’s variations for people since I was a kid, even though it’s technically not proper English or some crap.

But Xir? Get the fuck out of here with that nonsense.

No one said that. But keep playing the victim while telling us all things that aren’t truth and providing sources that directly contradict what you’re saying.


The sources make essentially the same point. (I never said all transgender people have mental illnesses, despite someone’s claim). The suicide risk remains astronomical post-surgery. The mental illness numbers are astronomical both pre-and-post surgery. I’ve already addressed what Timex was saying.


Pressured by…?

How is it self-harm if it’s medical treatment suggested by a doctor? What you’re really suggesting is widespread malpractice, at this point. That’s quite an accusation.

I also think you have a strange perception of how common hormonal therapy or surgery is. These are invasive, life-changing treatments with known poor success rates. They are not the first treatment by any measure. Doctors invariably prescribe the least invasive treatments first.


Can you rule out other biological causes? (Or has anyone else?)

Yes, and the “treatment” appears to not really help, which is pretty alarming to me. Whether it increases the suicide risk (as I claimed incorrectly) or doesn’t meaningfully reduce it from its already-high levels (as seems to be the case), that’s a legitimate issue to raise.

I worry there is a tendency to ostracize or criticize doctors who would recommend therapy for transgender people, instead of surgery or more aggressive treatments, as they are sometimes grouped in with people who recommend gay conversion therapy.


Why do you worry about this? This is certainly against best medical practice. You are suggesting there is a tendency for societal pressure to push doctors into widespread malpractice. That’s a heck of an accusation.

This wasn’t addressed to me, but again: you are now suggesting widespread malpractice. That’s quite an accusation.


But isn’t the accusation backed by the data I cited? Doctors are performing treatments that don’t seem to help. There’s definitely not much data on it, but the data there is, looks bad.


What a ridiculous study. Patients undergoing gender reassignment were matched to population controls.

You know what? If you compared patients undergoing radical mastectomy to population controls using the same analysis, you would find that many women die after radical mastectomy. But it is absurd to conclude that radical mastectomy is a bad idea. Because as anyone with an ounce of training would tell you, you are supposed to compare to untreated people with the same history.


It’s not ridiculous at all. The point of the study is to show that the surgery is not a one-and-done cure. That’s valuable information. It’s not saying to never do the surgery, necessarily, but it’s a data point that suggests the surgery does not solve the underlying mental health problem that many transgender people have.


That’s a stupid hypothesis. Nothing in medicine is one-and-done.


No, you said the vast majority. And the came up with stats that showed 51% in a subsection of the group.

51% is barely a majority.

And you’re also strongly suggesting, if not outright saying, that literally every transgender person is mentally ill with this whole dismorphia line.

Then when called on it, you switch completely to something else, which… again I don’t see the point of other than to subtly bash transgender people.


It’s actually not at all.

Given that they were just talking about depressive symptoms, while it’s certainly higher by a statistically significant degree, it’s not “astronomically” higher.

And again, that since was merely talking about people exhibiting depressive symptoms, so you can’t compare it to rates of people actually suffering from clinical depression.

Here’s a study which is actually using the same environment, and studying anxiety and depression, and breaks it down between cis and transgender people.

Consistent with previous research on non-student populations, transgender and gender-nonconforming graduate students, along with women, were more likely to experience anxiety and depression than their cisgender male counterparts. The prevalence of anxiety and depression in transgender or gender-nonconforming graduate students was 55% and 57%, respectively. Among cis students, 43% of women had anxiety and 41% were depressed. That’s compared to 34% of cis men reporting symptoms of anxiety and 35% showing signs of depression

So you have a higher incidence rate with transgender students but not “astronomically” so. Hell, you see similar jumps when comparing men to women, but i think it would be immediately rejected if you suggested that being a woman meant you were mentally ill.

A more reasonable explanation is that societal factors related to how these people are treated is the source of that increase in anxiety and depression.


The study showed 51% were depressed, not that only 51% had any mental illness (such as debilitating anxiety spectrum disorders, etc). You are also misrepresenting the study here. Either way, I actually cannot believe that you would look at a 51% rate of depression in a group and say that isn’t astronomical.

Maybe the goal is to help them, and maybe you can’t do that if your treatments don’t help.


Why do you think the medical profession has come to a different conclusion?

One hypothesis: the medical professionals are so significantly pressured they’re engaging in widespread malpractice of a treatment that even a layperson can see is not efficacious.

A second hypothesis: medical professionals know how to do their job, and you don’t know how to properly interpret medical statistics.

Do you have anything to suggest the second hypothesis is something I should disfavour?