The only support I ever heard from Iran is the giving money to the families of suicide bombers a few years ago. That’s not a good move, I condemn it… but it’s certainly not supporting Palestine or its government or people. Maybe they support them with words.
I’ll read any evidence to the contrary with an open mind.
Evidence of international smuggling? I’ll be sure to get right on that! (sorry, couldn’t resist the sarcasm opportunity)
My point is that regardless, Iran isn’t actually to blame so it’s kind of moot.
Iran has spoken publicly about funding Hamas and has used that funding in an attempt to influence Hamas’ behavior: http://www.newsweek.com/iran-renew-funding-hamas-despite-trumps-riyadh-speech-617996
Hamas is not an instrument of Iranian policy like Hezbollah, but it is supported by the Iranians.
So we have picked a side in what may become a large-scale civil war within Islam. The potential downsides to this are potentially existential for the US.
As I understand it, the primary ‘upside’ is pleasing the GOP’s evangelical voters.
Fuck.
Israel is a diverse place in terms of opinions. There are quite a few Israelis who are resolutely opposed to the current government and its actions. There are quite a few who reject the openly racist and malicious treatment of Palestinians. What you have, though, is a country where much of the current population is disconnected from the events that created the state; they see Palestinian actions as direct threats to their way of life, and they are accurate to do so. Leaving aside questions of right and wrong, or even law, such as it is, from the perspective of average Israelis the choices presented to them seem to be destruction of their society, economy, and even physical presence in the region, or a militarist neo-fascist oppression of the Palestinians. There are few alternatives on the table, and it would take a nation of Gandhis or Kings to choose metaphorical martyrdom over turning a blind eye to what goes on all too often.
American Jewish relations with Israel are varied as well. It runs the gamut from unconditional support, including support of pretty much any action against non-Israelis at any time, to active opposition to at least the government and its policies, and in some cases to the idea of the political state itself. Most, I would hazard, take a position sort of like what you end up when you look at Israelis themselves. There’s support for the Israeli people, and for the idea of the Jewish state, and concern for its security, mated to uneasiness with the methods used to provide that so-called security, and deep skepticism about both the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority.
But at its core, America’s relationship with Israel is how it is because Israel is a clone of us, in the sense that Israel approaches its relationships with the rest of the region the way the USA approaches its relationships with the rest of the world: we matter, you don’t, we’re legitimate, you aren’t. Period.
Given the thought process by evangelicals, these two concepts go hand in hand.
Remember, to evangelicals, winning means the literal end of the world.
You need to find better Israeli acquaintances. Many Israelis are very much not in favour of the current state of affairs.
Are you sure about that? All Gaza settlements were evacuated in 2005 (plus 4 more in the west bank).
If you are referring to the remaining settlements in the West Bank, Hamas’ rockets can’t reach there.
You might want to read a little about what the Nazis actually did. I am not really sure why every time that Israel’s conduct towards the Palestinians is discussed, someone feels the need to compare the IDF to the Nazis.
The situation is rather complex, and I don’t claim to understand all the nuances, but I always have felt that if the US were going to try and be a factor in the peace process that they had to make the appearance of being somewhat impartial, despite being pro-Israel. That is, they couldn’t be too overtly one-sided. The embassy move would seem to make that an impossibility.
My bro, who worked in that part of the world for a bit always pinned it 51 on the Palestinians and 49 on the Israelis but i wonder if the balance has shifted the other way in recent years. Even then, at the end of the day, this was a martyrdom operation, and explicitly sold to the protesters as such. They didn’t have to chose martyrdom as the sole solution to Trumps actions.
You are certainly right, but my gut tells me even a “peaceful” protest would have been met with a hail of Israeli bullets. They know they can do pretty much whatever they want to the Palestinians.
I agree with this.
It is a shame that Hamas and Likud have entered into this weird co-dependent relationship. If the PA leadership were more realistic, more Israelis would reject Likud’s hard-line approach. If Likud ever seemed serious about negotiating a viable two-state solution with the Palestinians, Palestinians would be less likely to support the absolutist Hamas agenda. Each ruling party depends on the intransigence of the other, and therefore on violent conflict, for domestic support. It’s a trap they can’t seem to get out from.
The actual goals of groups like Hamas are a bit murky, IMO. There’s rhetoric, which cannot be ignored I agree, and then there’s the mix of more pragmatic policies and actual actions. While Hamas is hardly a bunch of choirboys, I’m not sure I’d go along with the idea that they actually want to exterminate all the Jews in the region. Seems to me that such rhetoric serves their purposes at the moment (why not go all-in with horrible threats if you are, in effect, totally unable to do anything?), though one could argue that their actual political goals seem to leave little room for anything else other than the complete elimination of Israel as a political entity. Not that that is any more palatable or possible, but the gap between what Hamas can do or ever could do and the most extreme rhetoric attributed to them (or emanating from them) is enough to lessen the Israeli claims that they are an existential threat.
Hamas? Every Arab nation.
Go plot a graph of Jewish populations in Arab countries if you want to see the end game.
Gimme a break. That’s such a ridiculous statement I can’t even fathom what led you to say it.
You believe the Middle East wouldn’t be ethnically cleansed of Jews if the Israeli armed forces disappeared tomorrow? Uh, what do you think would happen? What about the previous attempts to obliterate it? and what do your Jewish population graphs show? Mine show a near successful ethnic cleansing of Jews across the entire Middle East and North Africa.
I think we will see Hezbollah serving as the model for Hamas and the Palestinians going forward. Hezbollah is the only military force that has beat the IDF in a stand up fight and kicked them out of their country.
Of course the IDF knows this as well, which is why they go to such extreme lengths to try and stop any weapons influx into Palestine from Iran. But its just a holding action. At some point those shipments will get through.
Its a goddawful situation frankly. Israel is crippled by having a very weak Prime Minister and the Palestinians are crippled by having nutcases as leaders. But over time as Israel surely knows, the United States is going to elect someone who has had enough of paying for their security. When the gravy train runs out then Israel is in a lot of trouble, it has no allies or friends as neighbours. When tough times come, and they surely will, there is going to be much more blood on the streets and it wont just be Arab blood either.
My hope and with the current leadership in Israel the United States and Palestine this is impossible, but my hope is that some sane people get elected in Israel and Palestine and they can work to the obvious and only solution. Independent Palestine and the return of the occupied territories in exchange for if not friendship, then at least a time where people can raise families without threat in both countries.
I think you need to learn the difference between migration and genocide. This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say you can’t engage people about Israel. Criticize them and some people start yelling genocide. No progress can be made when we use hyperbole in our arguments.
Um, you kind of forgot Iran lobbing rockets at Israel from Syria in just the past week or so.
Not until they build gas chambers and starting gassing Palestinians IN THEIR MILLIONS.
I find the actions of the Israeli government and their forces horrific and disappointing in the extreme but that comparison doesn’t stand under any scrutiny.