@ArmandoPenblade, don’t get me wrong – the Nazis are on our doorstep, and even though I’m reluctant and pushing 50, I’m preparing for the fight. I agree that we’re at war, or at least on the verge, and when the knives come out talk won’t get us anywhere. The things I’m bringing up are things that need to be addressed in peacetime, if we are lucky enough to get back to something resembling that at some point.
Yea that’s some overlap with class and identity and sometimes one trumps the other. /cough. I’m sure there are some women somewhere who support all sorts of terrible things, especially if they are older and endured the terrible thing themselves. There’s probably no clearer example of voting against your own interesting than a woman voting for Trump.
The scary thing to me about the neo-Nazi thing is in the literal application of the law. There’s a certain kind of person that will do what they’re told because the government aka society has told them it’s correct.
However to some extent this has been set up by liberal minded people ignoring the laws. Things like immigration laws aren’t being created new, they’re just being applied and enforced. Much of the ammunition the right uses against the left - not without some justification - is that the left is happy to ignore laws when they disagree with them yet lean heavily on the law when enforcing things they want or preventing things they dislike. For whatever reason the blatant hypocrisy of the left is more infuriating then the legalistic, lying hypocrisy of agents on the right. That gap between enforcement and legality is where we find ourselves in right now.
I’m afraid of Trump turning to the racist and nationalists for support when the rest of society has turned against him rather than just tacitly allowing them to tag along.
We wake up one morning, all the illegal immigrants are gone, sent home back to their country… you think the Neo Nazis group will suddenly be nice people again or just move onto the next group they can target?
It’s all bad, it’s just how much bad is being directed from above or being generated from below. I mean, maybe it’s an academic distinction, but it matters in the treatment and the cure. We’re in a bad place especially because so many Republicans have sold their souls (if they had one to begin with) for power, and at this point power is all they care about, so normal checks in what is usually a rather glacial system are shorted.
I think that might be why my response in this area and to some extent @ArmandoPenblade’s is a little different,stronger, although I won’t put words in his mouth.
If we appease everything the Neo Nazis want, enforce the laws, do all these things that look legal on the surface then suddenly things are better right, we took their ammunition away… except I don’t believe that. I think once they get rid of the illegal immigrants which is the easy target now, I’m next, no really me, literally next. I have zero confidence in this country to give a shit about me if we ever get to that point. This election proves to me that “the others” will be sold out in a heartbeat to the next snake charmer.
This group is violent and vile, and while some of their demands might seem reasonable on some level, they’re still violent and vile.
The problem is that most of the “system” is based on tradition, not law.
I don’t think we’re at all near that point Nesrie. I should hope not anyway. The shit eating grin on all Trump supporters now is the schadenfreude of watching liberals squirm when all the things they allowed to happen despite the law are being stopped. Where it goes from there is the real question, but i personally can’t imagine actual - though i know it’s a terrifying time now - actual Nazism as an actual ideology taking off here in the US. For one thing the demographics make this highly unlikely. However it’s bad enough letting them have any platform during a time like this.
The is though, I don’t think people people genocide and mass murder is going to happen until it does. You would think that it’s not possible in a democratic society like we have. Maybe it’s not, but the comfort of knowing and really knowing is there anymore. And it feels like the people who tell me that’s not going to happen are also the people who it wouldn’t happen to. I say feel because I realize feeling is not a fact.
I know there are all kinds of articles talking about how bad Trump isn’t or how deep down Trump supporters aren’t terrible people, I still wonder if even one or two of them would lift even a finger if they saw a group of blacks rounded up and shot. I suppose it might matter with what kind of clothes they were wearing but… that’s the reality for me today, until I see our checks and balances actually work.
Stephen Miller’s spiel this morning doesn’t help.
What things are those exactly, especially that weren’t also happening during the time of the Bush administration?
… or the Obama administration? Obama deported more than anyone. But what Trump is signaling is about control. Liberals don’t think you should, as a matter of principle, control who comes into the country. I mean, let’s be frank, Trump barely can tie his shoes and i hate giving credence that he possesses a shred of forward thinking policy making at all; but that’s what the Trumpites heard during the campaign.
Or Reagan for that matter.
And laws are being broken. We literally had ICE going door-to-door without probable cause or warrants trying to deport people regardless of their legal status or even knowing what that status was. They were Latinos and that was “enough”. We had CBP tricking people into revoking their visas before boarding a flight to the US so they could be detained or sent back.
I’m not sure but the immense amount of bullshit emanating from DC must be contagious somehow because that statement by Enidigm is both meaningless and bullshit of the first order. [quote=“Enidigm, post:90, topic:128049”]
Liberals don’t think you should, as a matter of principle, control who comes into the country.
[/quote]
Oh FFS. I rest my case.
I should’ve said immigrate. I mean obviously there are grades.
That’s not actually my position. We’re talking about specific things in Neo Nazis and Alt right, which apparently this group claims they don’t like illegal immigration. I think you would find illegal immigration is not well like by many on both sides.
And a lot of the bigger stories have been Legal immigrants.
I call bullshit on that.
There was already a strong vetting process that has been in place since 9/11. Trump just pretended it didn’t exist, despite everyone saying it did. Then he acted, illegally, on that lie.
Oh and I guess Ronald Reagan is a fucking liberal. So there’s that.
This obviously treads on subjects that are sensitive, but by and large i’d suppose that liberals tend to be much less willing to impose restrictions on immigration broadly, and that those who are here are, broadly, going to be immune from prosecution. But, like i said, Obama deported more even than Bush II, and generally conservative state governments in the south did little to halt illegal immigration themselves. But he did so behind the scenes, and liberals were generally subdued in their criticisms of Obama, though there was some. There was a pretty big gap actually between what liberal thought leaders at places like the NYT, Washington Post, Vox, Slate, ect said and the actions of administrations, and it’s been predictably hard to unwind the security state post 9/11.
Don’t get me wrong, i’m not talking about what Trump is actually doing, only what his supporters are thinking. What Trump is doing is almost certainly illegal.
I only bring up the immigration - alt-right axis because i tend to see this as being part of the anti-globalization movements more generally around the world and actually not necessarily specific to Trump and his supporters in particular.
Sure, but the difference between some conservatives and even some liberals who are not happy with illegal immigration, either the laws or the enforcement, and the Neo Nazis and the white supremacy groups that want to call themselves the alt right is if you remove all immigrants from the country, there are still non-whites here. Neo Nazis and white supremacy will not be satisfied with that.
Those who are not happy with our immigration laws should not align themselves with these violent and vile groups… those groups are a lost cause… but are not inclusive of everyone who has issues with our immigration policies.
Since this is the Neo Nazis and Alt right topic, when I say they are vile and violent and not worth trying to reach by the political left, that’s the group I’m talking about. You can’t talk to someone who literally believes they are superior to large portions of your voting base like that.
What type of deportations are you talking about, given that there are different types?
The key difference is the violence, then, was nearly totally from one side–the white, southern, entrenched segregationist side. While the Panthers and others were involved in some violence, and SNCC often pursued a confrontational tone, it was white police who unleashed the dogs and firehoses on people. It was white terrorists who murdered civil rights workers. It was southern states that turned the power of the state against men, women, and children. The violence that occurred–and yes, the “movement” in toto sure as hell knew they were going to incur violent reactions, and knew there would be casualties–galvanized the country, and shamed the northern whites into doing something. So violence was, indeed, a key part of the struggle.
But it wasn’t bands of black guerrillas roaming the countryside shooting up police stations or gangs of urban men laying siege to the courthouse (though there were episodes of such things, though often more on the radical-left side of the agenda than purely civil rights oriented). It was violence as judo.
To be honest i’m not sure which category of deportation.