I’m curious if the developer knows the answer?
Of course, “please sit next to each individual player and answer every question individually as it pops up” is not a sustainable or realistic way to teach a game, but it’s what has been offered instead of a manual.
But if even the developer doesn’t know the answer, then we’re uncovering some real problems!
It looks like Old World took more advice from Paradox games than I thought. I’ve only tried one game and didn’t even finish it, but it certainly looks like a game you play for a while before you understand. As in just relax, do what seems to make sense, don’t try to stick to any specific strategy, see what happens. It’s probably a fool’s errand to look up ahead to what happens anyway. And maybe later you discover some deep strategy game, but some of the most revered Paradox games like Crusader Kings 2 or Victoria 2 don’t have that deep strategic level you uncover, so it’s not a requirement.
Now I’d be surprised if there’s no deep strategy game behind all this fluff. And I don’t see how the game could be fully explained. The events are very important for this game, and there’s a huge variability of what they can offer. A lot of later mechanics are rightfully obscured to not confuse the player. But sometimes it’s so weird. As Tom mentioned there’s no grand vision described in the manual. But more than that, you get glimpses of mechanics that are not properly explained.
Like religion. You see there are 4 possible religions and they have specific requirements. But I heard you can get religions some other way (through the families?..) and tooltips don’t say this anywhere. But fine, maybe I’d now if this was an option. But wait, after I build a shrine (or two?.. Or was this something else?..) I suddenly get my own culture Paganism and my court converts. Is it a weaker version of religion? Should I only use it if I can’t get one of the big 4? I’m not sure. Eventually I’ll discover it and till then I’ll have to play it like a role-playing game on a lower difficulty.
Yes, the effects of ratings do not scale linearly. A fourth point of Charisma will produce a lot more Civics than the first point of Wisdom will produce Science. Wasn’t really sure how to explain that without the actual formula, so I could add a note about that in the help.
Q: What are the hash marks next to some of the units?
It’s obviously important enough to merit a spot on the units list, but I can’t figure out what it’s trying to tell me. It’s not remaining hit points, it’s not experience points, it’s not defensive value, it’s not family relationship.
Similarly, it would be really nice to get some information – any information – about how movement works. Q: How does movement interact with terrain? How do roads work?
-Tom
So, about that formula… is that… something we get to know?
The little bars are Hit Points. The little circles are the number of moves the unit can take before being Fatigued. The Roman numeral on the left is the unit’s level.
Don’t get me started yet. I’ve got a ball of white-hot incandescent rage growing inside me for how religion is an inscrutable black box. And then Old World comes along and obscures the issue even further! :)
Can I get a rimshot?
Seriously, though, religion is a perfect example of Old World’s failings as a game. Maybe not as a game design, since I have a lot of trust in the design, and it looks like it’s taking a page from the excellent religion mechanics in Civ IV. But the fact that this fundamental gameplay system is so utterly undocumented is astonishing to me.
-Tom
It was an oversight that we didn’t mention the extra movement costs of terrain/height/vegetation, which will be in the help next update. Basically, Trees, Scrubs, and Hills all cost you extra movement points. Roads let you move through tiles for 1/3 of a normal movement point and ignore the extra terrain costs. I can add that to the road help also.
Ah, so they’re called ratings? I don’t think I’ve seen that term anywhere in the documentation, so that’s nice to finally know. I did try to hunt around to figure out what they’re called. None of them have civilopedia entries.
And, yes, lordy, that’s a hugely important thing to communicate! If the design is based on rewarding players disproportionately for focusing on one rating, why wouldn’t you tell the player??? I mean, I could have inferred it eventually, but only after I’ve made several choices without knowing the ramifications of those choices. And even then, I can’t be sure of the reason for the different bonuses being so dramatically different.
The bars are hit points? I mean, that seemed to me the obvious explanation, so at least it’s intuitive. But are you sure it’s working? For instance, from that list I posted, here’s an archer with 15/20 hit points, but no hash marks in the list:
Here’s a disciple with 20/20 hit point, but 19/20 on the list:
Here’s another disciple with 20/20 hit, but no hash marks on the list:
-Tom
I think the HP issue is a straight up bug.
Y’all have fun, I hope this gets sorted! I admire Soren’s ability to design a game and Tom’s dogged persistence in learning it, truly against all odds. I’ll be here with a neatly folded “Old World cheerleader” costume ready to be worn and $40 ready to be spent at the earliest sign that the rules are accessible. Can be a manual, tutorials, YouTube video, interpretive dance routine… any format. TikTok videos, if manuals are too old school for you. Name the date, place and time, and I’ll be there, ready to learn.
I hope the reaction is not disheartening to devs.
We all probably have as much problems with similar empire building games years after release. Old World is more polished than most AAA releases and I have no regrets over my purchase.
You post this kind of thing in every game thread.
The documentation could be better, but it’s not like Old World is a shoddy, unpolished release. Learning the game “against all odds” is a bit absurd. I play with plenty of people that learned it just fine.
This is still confusing to me. Based on your comment, I’m assuming it costs two movement points to enter a hex with trees, scrubs, or hills. But here’s a scout with three movement points able to enter two hills:
Also, it seems like terrain effects stack, which makes sense. The scout will use all three movement points walking into this scrub hill:
Also, if I’m not mistaken, it seems like crossing rivers costs a movement point.
-Tom
Yes, crossing a river costs a movement point. (Moving along the edge of a river is treated like moving along a road, btw.)
Your example make sense: The scout has three moves (the little steps icon) and it costs 2 steps to move into the first tile (base 1 + 1 for the hills) and 2 for the second tile. We always round down as long as you have any movement point remaining. (Like Civ always did before Civ 6.)
Wait, really? I mean, I love it for modeling how realworld exploration and navigation worked, but is that communicated anywhere? And how does it work with the bonus for implementing the Colonization law?
Okay, I’m still confused. Round down to what? Reducing the cost of something from 2 to 1 isn’t rounding down!
-Tom
I’m not sure what the right term for it is - as long as you have any movement points, you can make your final move.
Sorry, should have specified that the river movement rule I mentioned IS the one from Colonies.
Q: Can Tribes be converted to religions? Here’s my disciple, having slogged across several turns of territory to bring the One True (Assyrian State) Religion to the godless Vandals.
He has the option to Convert Vandals to Judaism, which the tooltip seems to contradict or correct by specifying that the conversion only applies to this site. I mean, at this point, the Vandals only have one site, so fair enough. I would expect it to only apply to this site, just as when cities are converted.
But after I use him up, spending the 500 money it costs and the time it took to get him out here, I can’t see any indication that the Vandals are now Jewish. But more importantly, I’m not getting any credit for my Spread Religion Ambition.
-Tom
EDIT: Okay, it looks like the result doesn’t apply until after you hit end turn. But it turns out that converting a Tribes’ site doesn’t give you credit for a Spread Religion ambition. So, the answer is: A: Yes, you can convert Tribes, but they don’t apply to Spread Religion Ambitions.
People disheartened by what they perceive to be an unfair pile-on of questions and declarations of disappointment in a lack of explanations should understand that this is actually Tom’s expression of intense interest. Trust me on this. If he didn’t like Old World, he wouldn’t care about learning the rules of the game. He’d just uninstall and call it done.
I’ll change it so they do apply to the ambitions because that just makes sense. I need to rename “Convert” to “Spread” but that actually kills two birds with one stone because I was never happy the Convert was used as a verb here and in the Character Missions. (I prefer game terms to only apply to one thing.)
The tribe doesn’t convert right away because it’s based on all of the sites, which may have been converted to other religions.
