It is a fair point. In theory, it would make for a more competitive end game. In practice, when it has happened to me, I do get annoyed. Really, China, and Egypt you are going to declare war on me and some how invade with your WWI infantry and artillery, against my modern armor, after you get through my Navy and stealth bombers, good luck with that plan. It often backfires, instead of just finishing up the spaceship or UN victory, I decide I don’t want to fight the pointless war and just quit the game immediately.
So if it is done it should be done while it can still make a difference in the game.
I have mixed feeling about the end game slog. On one hand, I feel it is too bad that developers went to all the trouble to create the late game techs, and laws, and I never get to play with them. On the other hand the beginning and middle of the 4x games are always the most interesting. I’d say 10% of my Civ IV were competitive past 1800, but the were some of my favorite games.
I feel Old World has the potential to create a higher percentage of interesting end games, but it is not there yet.
Ah, the age-old question of the AI playing to win versus playing with a consistent personality. I always find it very annoying when an AI ignores centuries of peace to attack the player (or even just to vote against them) because they are seen as a threat due to the artificial concept of victory. On the other hand, a game shouldn’t just be a victory procession once you can predict the behaviour of the AI. A difficult balance to strike (as Soren knows well).
I was wondering about some sort of system where on each ruler’s death you could choose your heir to make the game easier or harder (in exchange a score boost).
Another system might be to ensure that your civilization will face a “crisis” at some point with each of your rivals. For a sworn enemy this would probably be a war that needs to be won conclusively. If the war is inconclusive you will sooner or later be forced to face them again later. For friends a diplomatic event chain of some sort, perhaps, leading to a personal union or permanent defensive alliance or something. Either way this would give the impression of overcoming rival civilizations to stand as uncontested leader of the known world. Difficult to do without interrupting player agency though.
I really like the idea of a TKO. Kind of like the opponent resigning in chess. Old World already lets you play on if you won, so you could always keep playing if you wanted to win the old-fashioned way. I like @rho21’s idea of a crisis, too. I’m not so wild about gang-up-on-leader mechanics, but I could live with those too.
Alternatively, maybe the answer is to embrace the slog – to reward the player with some metascore for a Hall of Fame, or a Throne Room, or achievements, or some such. This is already a relatively short 4x – 200 turns vs 500 for Civ 6 – and the order system also quickens the endgame. I’d be more interested in those last 15-20 sloggy turns if I were trying to build a throne room, or palace, or mega-Wonder, for some goal beyond immediate victory. Try to reward efficiency rather than grinding. Maybe you get a commendation (or Hall of Fame point, or throne room bauble) if you can excavate Troy in 20 turns, or research some almost-impossible modern tech by turn 150, or something.
I don’t object to this on my own behalf… because I won’t play on beyond what is fun, regardless of rewards. (And I turn hard against games that gate content behind that sort of thing.)
But I’d advise Soren not to do embrace slog, because lots of players are obsessed with end-of-game rewards and victory screens, and if the game design motivates them to push through slog they would not otherwise want to endure, then you get negative buzz about the game, as the weeks go by, and more of the voices are of people who are reacting after a sloggy late game.
My advice is to find some mechanism to minimize the need for slog, if that is at all possible.
Ran into a bit of a technical glitch today trying to log into the test branch.
Click on game, it loads and then bounces out to the browser to log into the epic store and gives me the following error message:
Application Access is Restricted, Unfortunately you do not have access to use this application.
The game loads and throws up some red error it occasionally gives out saying something about epic store authorization failure, then when I go to load the save it throws up half a dozen error messages and then loads the save.
This is 0.1.38450 (5/26/2020)
Anyone else seeing this on the branch?
Also observation on a minor feature nice to have for housekeepting: it would be handy to be able to shift highlight multiple saves so you can click on a series and delete them all in one go. At the end of a campaign it’s nice to clean the place up for a new campaign. Always liked being able to do this in TW games when you were finished.
I’ve been having a harder challenge since the latest patch. Probably I haven’t yet adjusted to the various rules changes, but it seem the AI (both nations and tribes) now expand more quickly- is that right or just my misimpression? I suppose the change in vision rules could have helped them?
Test branch updates includes all these (plus art, UI, and bug fixes): All reform techs now give +1 Victory Point
Reform techs now go up in cost 25% each time they are researched
All units have had their vision range increased by one Mounted units now get a -25% penalty when attacking settlements (cities, tribe camps)
Polearm units exert ZOC against Mounted units
Camel Archer loses Nomad Trait, gains 25% bonus vs Horse Units
City borders have had their vision range increased by one
The Holy War law no longer provides training to State Religion cities
Holy War: Now adds “Can Hurry Unit Production with Money” to State Religion cities
The Secularism law has been changed so that all cities now have a -50% chance per year to produce rebel units (Down from -100%)
The Volunteers Law can now Hurry all City Production with Population, rather than just Units
The Veneration Theology now yields +20 Gold per Monastery (Up from +10)
Trade League adjusted from: Unlocks Convoy, +3 Growth in Coastal Cities to: Unlocks Convoy, can Sell for the same price as Buying
Monetary Reform changed from: can Sell for the same price as Buying to: No Discontent penalty from Hurrying, -1 Discontent per year
Calligraphy: Now gives Libraries 4 Culture and 2 Science, from 4 Science
Resource cost per population based on culture has been rebalanced Improvements without specialists now cost Maintenance Building an Urban improvement on a non-Urban tile costs more Stone
A capture capital ambition has been added
Founding a Patrons Seat no longer grants the Seat +1 Culture level, now adds a Great Minister to court
Patrons Seat no longer has “Can Hurry Project Production with Money”
All Patron Cities now have “Can Hurry Project Production with Money”
The price for buying additional orders now has more volatility
Excess orders are now always sold for 10 gold (This will not affect market cost) Tribes now spawn faster at higher difficulty levels Tribes raiding range now scales with difficulty
Alliances now always cost a lump sum payment
Commander Archetype no longer has “Can Hurry City Production with Population”
Commander Archetype now has “Can Hurry City Production with Orders”
The Dealmaker trait has been updated
This trait now gives Governors a -50% Improvement Cost buff
Bypassed heir is now a relationship with the Leader or Heir, rather than a trait
I wasn’t paying enough attention to know if it started exactly when the patch arrived or if I just spent too many orders on military (lots of nearby aggressive tribes, plus Assyria right on my doorstep just declared war), but I sure am bleeding resources.
Definitely not this one. Rubber banding in strategy games sucks hard, in my opinion.
I don’t have any problems just calling the game and a victory and starting a new one if I hit the foregone conclusion point.
I’m with you on the gang-up mechanics. I think I prefer my games feeling more simulation and less boardgamey when it comes to this sort of thing. In a game where you’re managing families and empires it just feels weird for a nation that you have had flourishing trade with for a hundred years or more suddenly declares war because you’re going to “win”. It’s immersion breaking for me and honestly significantly limits the usefulness and appeal of playing a more peaceful/builder type of game. Alliances aren’t really alliances when it’s a foregone conclusion they’re going to attack you.
@FinnegansFather has already posted the most important patch notes. Here are the Art, UI, audio, and bug fixes he mentioned, as well as a list of new events:
Remaining patch notes
Art
The barbarian marauder unit has received some animation updates
This unit now has attack and hit animations
The combat idle animation for this unit has been updated
The Pantheon Wonder has been updated with a greybox model
The Odeon and Town models have been updated
UI
Tech Tree rework
These changes are to better communicate to players what techs are currently available, and which will be available soon
Adding minimap minimize button
The unit list tab has been updated to sort units similarly to how they are listed in the unit pop up help text
More consistent layout for player/tribe selection panels
An ‘All Candidates’ option has been added to the Choose General/Governor/Council pop up
This option will show all candidates, even those who already have a job
Selection panels have received some small revisions to standardize them and remove unnecessary elements
Family portraits have been spaced out a bit on the relatives section of the character actions panel
The Inheritance screen background has been updated
The specialist widget in the City screen has been improved
Family widgets have been improved
And indicator arrow has been added to show which active cycle group is selected
Added new category icons for Worker
Worker filters moved to a context menu
The Training yield icon has been updated to better differentiate it from Maintenance
Various icons have received a polish update
Added Action Icons
Anchor
Unlimber
Add Urban
Add General
Found City
Audio
Music is now unlocked after researching the Drama tech
This feature is still in progress, music will still not start until reaching turn 10 regardless of whether or not Drama has been researched
Add audio for worker actions
Cutting
Digging
Mining
Farming
Building
New Events
Prophecy
Your scouts investigate some nearby ruins and make a shocking discovery
The Diviner
Your scouts find an interesting character upon investigating some nearby ruins
Face in Gold
Another civilization arrives in your court to discuss coinage
Mechanical Wonders
An heir from another nation arrives in your court and has a request after spending time with your great scientist
A Flirtation
Your spouse is openly flirting with someone during a goodwill banquet, gossip ensues
Caravan of Love
The heir of another nation shows some interest in your heir during a visit to celebrate relations between your nations
Unrequited
You receive some troubling news about the heir of another nation after their recent visit to your nation
True Inheritance
Your servants discover that your heir is missing from their chambers and has left a note for you
Pleasure Banquet
Just as an eventful day full of contests and performances seems to be wrapping up, more wine is brought to the hall and your subjects request the festivities continue
Funeral Procession
Following the death of a person from your nation, their family requests a funeral procession to honor their military career
Visitor from the East
A noted scholar and philosopher arrives in your nation and requests an audience with you
Mysterious Sickness
Citizens in one of your cities are suffering from a mysterious disease and your scientists demand immediate action
The Pox Spreads
The pox continues to ravage the city it started in, and has begun to spread
After the Death
After several difficult years, the mysterious sickness seems to be receding, and you must decide how to mark this moment for generations to come
A Confirmation
Your spouse comes to you with a demand regarding your heir
Unfaithful Tidings
Rumors about your are circulating in the capital, and your spouse approaches you with a simple plea
Uncanny
Rumors of your heir’s uncanny abilities have reached the court, and many wish to inquire about their knowledge
Lovesick
You visit the academy where your child is studying rhetorics, and find that they have wooed many of their classmates
Youthful Zeal
You visit the academy of rhetorics, and you and your child end up in an argument about court policies
Eager for Combat
You receive news that your child is unhappy with their lessons at the academy of tactics, and then they send a demand
Peaceable Kingdom
Your child visits home and has acquired an interest in caring for animals, and you must suggest how they further their interests
Returning Soldier
A soldier comes home
Physical Confrontation
An incident at the tactics academy requires your attention
Ancient Lessons
Your child finds something in nearby ruins
Rule of Law
Your child visits court
Unhealthy Interests
Your child shows an interest in poisons
A Funny Feeling
You wake up with stomach pains
AI
AI animations no longer speed up when moving more than one step
This change is to address user reports that AI has unfair movement advantages
AI more aggressive in pursuing targets that are revealed but not visible
AI no longer chops trees inside other players’ territory
Miscellaneous Changes
Some units have received some minor name updates
The Catapult unit is now called the Onager
The Onager unit is now called the Mangonel
The Raider unit is now called the Marauder
Some tutorial events have received minor edits
The introduction tutorial event will now always fire regardless of tutorial settings
The introduction tutorial event has received some text edits
Multiple changes have been made to change the “Empire” term to “Nations, to clear up inconsistent use of terms
The help text for unlimbering and anchoring actions has been updated
The pillaged text now appears again
The camera now pans to AI founding cities
Bug Fixes
Fixed an issue where players could not remarry after their spouse died
Fixed an issue with making decisions after using the undo button
Fixed crash from event that spawns rebel units around barbarian cities
Fixed an issue where dead characters could still provided bonuses
Fixed an issue where aqueducts could provide multiple fresh water bonuses
Fixed an issue where the diplomacy icons shown in the empires tab were inconsistent sizes
Fixed some alignment issues with unit cooldown icons
Fixed an issue where civics icons would sometimes appear incorrectly on the inheritance screen
Fixed an issue where characters that were placed in Council roles did not have their actions list update appropriately
Fixed an issue with courtier and royal family member costs
Fixed an issue where some actions were incorrectly being put into context menus when selecting foreign leaders
Fixed some issues with text placement and scaling on the selected character and family panel UI elements
Fixed an issue where some UI elements weren’t properly hidden in certain full screen menus
Fixed an issue with locking tooltips for characters
Fixed an issue where the camera could still be zoomed in and out with a pop up active
Fixed an issue where AI would not attack captured cities that were in a state of anarchy
Fixed bug with Miners working on Laurion Mines
General improvements have been made to address performance issues
Fixed various event issues
Aside from the factors you mentioned, it seems to me that they have tightened up city placement, maybe. The other major civs are not necessarily going to declare on you before you can get things going, but you are going to have to declare on them. The days of getting fat on simple barbarians (even tribes) seems to be over. Though I suppose it might be difficulty level rather than the update? Not sure. But it looks to me like you generally start pretty hemmed in.
Definitely finding it more difficult. The biggest thing, I think, is that it is harder to get ahead on natural resources. In past games, all I had to do was crank out some workers, and it just happened. Now I am finding that after building a few of everything, I am above water but not by all that much. I assume that it has to do with maintenance on improvements that do not have specialists, although I have not seen exactly how that is figured.
I’m playing the Game of the Week, which is on “the Just,” and was presumably generated before the patch did any tinkering with the map-generation algorithm. Anyway, it’s going well for me, but it’s certainly less challenging than last week’s GOTW. I may start a random-map game soon on a higher difficulty level to see what you guys are encountering.
