As someone who actually listens to lyrics, I don’t regard this as possible. Stupid, horrible people tend to write stupid, horrible lyrics.
Bad art doesn’t undo good art; it just falls away into the dustbin of history, leaving the good stuff to be remembered.
I have no problem putting artists on artistic pedestals. I also don’t mind putting John McEnroe on a tennis pedestal, or Bobby Fischer on a chess pedestal, or Genghis Khan on a military strategy pedestal. To me, that is simply an acknowledgement of supreme achievement. It does not need to lead to personal deification or moral approbation.
But stupid, horrible lyrics go into the art, and therefore are part of the art. They are not “real world” idiocy. They get baked into the initial artistic evaluation.
I don’t even know how to respond to that. Stupid horrible lyrics = shitty song to my mind, full stop.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. If a song has stupid and horrible lyrics, that is part of the art of the song. It’s a separate category from real world idiocy.
Case in point: “We Major” doesn’t have “stupid and horrible” lyrics. Somehow Kanye managed to write (IMO) good (or at least good enough) lyrics even though he is evidently a real-world idiot. Probably because he limited the scope to the intensely personal, which is an instinct many good artists obey, which is completely tangential to how they may appear in spheres of politics etc.
Note: if someone wants to argue that “We Major” has bad lyrics, they are of course welcome to do so, and it’s not a hill I’m going to die on, but I don’t think it affects the larger point that flawed/dumb/bad people can make good art. Which again seems to me so self-evident as to cause me some amazement that it even requires stating.
exactly
Nice to see my posts being mined for quick laughs, anyway. Think I’m done here!
tl/dr: Being a great (or very good; I reserve ‘great’ for artists of higher caliber than Kanye) artist and being a real-world idiot can coexist. I wasn’t aware this was a controversial assertion, but I stick by it.
We would have also accepted chucklefuck.
Indeed.
I’m just going to back out of this here. :) I don’t know that I’ve ever even heard a Kanye song, and having looked up the lyrics to that one we’re… not living on the same planet. Which is fine, music is an incredibly personal thing and what means something to one person means less than nothing to another.
As I said, I really don’t think my argument hinges on whether or not “We Major” has good lyrics, so I am not going to die on that hill (“better than some head on a Sunday afternoon” is pretty gross, but it doesn’t make me stop enjoying the song). Kanye is one drop in a vast ocean of artists comprising a vast spectrum of talents and real-world ideas and political allegiances and personal histories. I have made my point about twelve times now, and cannot articulate it better, so I say to you all, adieu!
And I don’t have any interest in making you do so, your position is indeed clear. Personally, with regards specifically to music with lyrics, I find it nigh impossible to disentangle what I know about an artist from the words they’re expressing themselves with, because that knowledge filters the intent of said words. It’s not a problem I have with instrumental music or many other forms of art, but specifically writing in any form I can’t readily separate the artist from the art. The underlying person always bleeds through.
I don’t think it makes sense to read pop music lyrics on a page. It’s not meant to be read like poetry. Few lyrics are going to hold up to such scrutiny. Not every songwriter is Patti Smith or Leonard Cohen, nor do they need to be. Kanye’s lyrics work fine in the context of his production and delivery. (Well, not always, but usually.)
That said, Kanye has never really been considered an excellent wordsmith. Listening to Kanye for the lyrics makes about as much sense as listening to Led Zeppelin for the lyrics (which maybe people do if they’re really into hobbits or whatever). Which is not to say that Kanye was not influential in this sphere: He was the principal figure in instituting a turn in hip hop toward more lyrical introspection, which is now the dominant trend in the genre, evidenced by guys like Drake and Kendrick Lamar.
But, Kanye’s strength is mostly in his production and his ear for beats. He raps over stuff that most would never consider. His productions (and the beats he selects that he does not produce) can sound like pop music sound collages, especially over the course of an entire album. He’s downright pop avant-garde at times. Compared to most hip hop that preceded him, there’s a noticeable difference in terms of sonic palette. If you listen to, say, a Wu-Tang Clan beat or a 50 Cent beat—the latter an artist popular just before Kanye started rapping—and compare it to a Kanye beat, it’s amazing they’re even in the same genre at all. That’s his strength. Through his eclecticism, he’s basically hip-hop postmodernism. He’s also produced lots of stuff for other artists, including a pair of Jay-Z’s most iconic tracks—“Takeover” and “Izzo”—and Pusha T’s excellent Daytona album from a few years ago.
And the Katrina thing was from 2005 (My favorite part of that is still the director having to throw it to Chris Tucker to try and get the show back on the rails). That was my introduction to Kanye. The VMA stunt was the first time I ever heard of Taylor Swift.
I guess what I’m saying is Kanye West is my pop culture conductor.
I hadn’t heard of him, is he on youtube?
I’m bowing out of this discussion. I have strong feelings that do not need to be posted. Sorry.
Wow, that just makes it all the sadder. He honestly sounds like an artist I’d be interesting in learning more about, and whose work I might find interesting, if he weren’t such a reprehensible sack of shit as a person.
I miss the Kanye who used to make fun songs.
If they hate then let 'em hate and watch the money pile up.
He hasn’t done anything to get on the ballot but he’s picked a running mate.
Just go back to making commercially successful pop-rap for middle class wypipo Kanye. You do that quite well by the amount of salt thats generated whenever anyone points out your music is shit.