Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation.
An important point about excommunication is that technically the person in question excommunicates himself, by acting in a way that breaks him from communion with the Church. So that’s probably what Pope Francis was trying to communicate, that by their actions these murderers and thieves who often claim to be good men of the Church in fact can’t be so. But Nezz is right that there’s a formal declaration of excommunication that doesn’t happen just when the Pope says so in a speech like this. Still, I’m sure it’s a significant thing for the Pope to say in that culture.
Have previous Popes just not had the balls to trash-talk the Mafia like this; or does every Pope go through with this and nothing much changes?
Here he is riding in his Popemobile: http://jalopnik.com/pope-francis-riding-in-a-ford-focus-is-the-most-beautif-1595852227
I saw a story in relation to this one that JPII did something similar, then shut the hell up after a couple of bombs went off in southern Italian churches. Can’t be arsed to find the link right now.
Pope Francis drops some truth: His Top 10 tips for bringing greater joy to one’s life.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1403144.htm
- Live and let live.
- Be giving of yourself to others.
- Proceed calmly in life.
- Have a healthy sense of leisure.
- Sunday is for family.
- Be creative with young people.
- Respect and take care of nature.
- Letting go of negative things quickly is healthy.
- Don’t proselytize.
- Work for peace.
Wow, thats a lot of hypocrisy in a short text
I will just pick two random:
- Live and let live
So gays is ok now?
- Don’t proselytize.
So will they close doors?
The list doesn’t do the article justice. It is a quick read and well worth it.
Agreed. If anything, shortening it to one-liners cheapens the message.
Well yeah - he’s said as much in the past.
This has been Catholic doctrine for a while now – while there are plenty of hard-core American Catholics who will shout their values at you, and no doubt there are some “evangelical” Catholics out there, the Church as a whole generally doesn’t actively try and sway people from other faiths to join up. No doubt a good thing since they should have their hands full trying to get “lapsed” Catholics like Yours Truly back into the fold; a heady challenge.
That’s definitely a step in the right direction. Proselytizing is one of the things that makes it hardest to co-exist with the religious. I had a really nutty orthodox Jewish roommate in college, and it was not the least bit a burden, because he wasn’t interested in converting me. Dealing with his aversion to light switches on the Sabbath was no hardship.
That said, for all that Francis is saying some attractive things, there are still a lot of fundamental things it’d be nice to see him address. Like, for example, dropping the idea that sex is an awful thing, and birth control a sin. That’s still core to Catholicism, isn’t it? And Original Sin. Not a fan of the idea that newborns are somehow accountable for the actions of distant, distant mythical forebears.
Heh, you’ll find some of the most religious Jews now proselytizing for the Noahide laws, actually.
First, sex is not considered an awful thing by the church, not at all. Look up John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. Second, none of this is core to the Catholic faith by any stretch. These just happen to be a couple of the areas where the Church’s teachings are most visibly out-of-line with contemporary morals, so they stand out in high relief and get talked about.
If you want to understand the Catholic position better, it’s probably easier to think of the story of Adam and Eve as necessitated by the concept of Original Sin, not the other way around. (Remember, Catholics aren’t biblical literalists.) Catholicism (Christianity in general) says, “Look around: Human beings are noble creations, but all of them are, invariably, fundamentally broken. The world is broken, shot through with death and suffering. Why is nothing as good as we imagine it could be?” The complex answer is summed up in the words “original sin.” And newborns are still considered innocent, but they carry within them the propensity for sin. The proof is that no matter how innocent they are when they’re born, they’ll all grow up to be imperfect.
I disagree on the “Christianity in general” point - most Protestants hold to the doctrine of “total depravity”, and under “Sola fide” it is faith and not deeds which beings salvation.
On the other hand, the Catholic Church has begun over the last decade to focus on economic sins - to be blunt, capitalism.
Though not actually directly involving the Pope, an interesting article on a recent meeting of bishops to discuss what Francis called “contemporary relationships” and how the Church deals with them.
The synod issued a number of guidelines that they feel individual churches should consider. The group will meet next year and take into account the reactions from across the Catholic community before actually making recommendations to the Pope for any policy changes.
The recommendations are not entirely unexpected, but they might be viewed as “refreshingly non-conservative” if you are a Vatican watcher: it implies a shift from criticizing gays, divorcees, and pre-marital cohabitation to a more “inclusive” approach.
They urged pastors, for instance, to be more welcoming to gays, who have “gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community.” And it called on pastors to treat divorced Catholics who have remarried civilly with respect, “avoiding any language or behavior that might make them feel discriminated against.”
I personally found some of the language to be more than a little arrogant and patronizing, like this little gem:
The Church turns respectfully to those who participate in her life in an incomplete and imperfect way, appreciating the positive values they contain rather than their limitations and shortcoming[s].
Nicely passive-aggressive. Still, it’s step in the right direction… and by that, I mean socially Left.
Well, I am an staunch, ideologically farthist left, atheist (Spanish, so my main contact with Cristianity is with Catholicism, though I lived in NYC six years).
I always thought the Catholic Church leans left in many ways, but sadly this was mostly confined to base Catholic activists (I have a very close friend who belongs to a base Catholic community, and he and his community are incredibly socially active and progressive).
However, the Catholic power structure, at least in Spain, has traditionally leaned far right. But since Francis has been Pope, there has been a fundamental (if slow) shift in the stablishment. Traditionally right wing and elite pandering public figures (Rocco Varela being the most prominent) are being slowly pushed to the side, and Catholic media is shifting towards talking about social issues, and away from a defined political standing (although abortion is still an issue, but I do understand that particular focus if you have certain beliefs).
I find Francis is saying, and doing, all the right things. At least in the context of a millennial organization that is traditionally slow to assimilate changes. Basically the whole lets care less about sexual behavior and orientation and more about fundamental Cristian values -which again, i tend to feel are socially progressive-.
I have to confess I have become kind of a fan of the guy. From my point of view he’s slowly forcing the more traditional Church leadership into change.
This, I think, is the key. It permeates the New Testament yet it has been neglected by Christianity for a long time, yet it is incredibly important given what’s happening all around us.
One step forwards, two steps back. Cowards.
Cowards.
That makes little sense, as it implies that some people were courageous yesterday, and then their courage fell. But it was just an internal draft published halfway through an ongoing deliberation, and the same people who supported such language yesterday are still supporting it today.
Yes, all they said it that it’s a working document. Which it was. Let’s see what the final document states. And what the reaction to it is from the conservative side of the Church.
That news does not change the fact Francis seems to be trying to enact positive progressive change. But the institution itself is divided, and of course there will be an struggle. I just hope that the Head taking such a stance helps the progressive side into a stronger position.
Theres a friction between things they may want to do to gain more customers and what they sells…
I think.
So their closed mind customers stop them from acting in a way that may allow them to gain some more open minded customers.
Perhaps correctly… because it don’t make sense to them to find open-minded customers,… their product is closemindess!
Also the whole thing is hilarious to me. Is like a small club for euclidean geometers… they write long letters why non-euclidian geometry is a sin.