Raleigh-Durham, NC - Insight needed

Well, since my wife lost her job a few weeks ago we’ve been talking quite a bit about whether we want to stay in Maryland or move on. We’ve been here for almost 15 years but really don’t have strong ties to the area. As she’s looked for new jobs, one of the places that seem to host a good amount in her field is the Research Triangle part of the Raleigh-Durham area.

So over the Columbus Day weekend, we’re going to go down and spend a couple days there to try and get a feel for the area. I know QT3 has some folks down that way, so I was hoping I could pick your brains and see what you think of living there.

What do you like/don’t like about the area, how are the schools, the people, traffic etc etc. Anything you can pass on about life that way would be helpful. It would almost surely mean a career change for me, but at this point I’m not so sure that it would be a bad thing.

I can’t help with your specific question, but if your wife does tech/research, you might also look at Huntsville, AL. I grew up there and it’s a great town with a very nice Research Park, full of places. AFAIK, the economy is still pretty good there, too, and many of the schools are excellent.

Howdy. I grew up in Raleigh, left for ~ 20 years or so (during which time I lived in about 6 different places) and just returned about 4 months ago. I’m a UNC-CH grad, too, so I spent several years in Chapel Hill.

The population has exploded here in the past 20 years. It’s frequently said now that it’s hard to find the people who actually grew up here.

The RDU area is a little tricky to get a feel for in just a few days. Raleigh has a lot of neat stuff going on and while much of it is advertised, you’ll stumble on some cool stuff as you spend time in the area. I’m not really sure what you all are into, so here are some thoughts. I’m happy to answer any specific questions.

  • Pick up a copy of The Independent, a free local paper that details all of the events. It comes out weekly. They have a website too: http://www.indyweek.com/

  • Chapel Hill used to be really cool. It’s on a bit of a decline as all of the common national chain stores move onto Franklin Street and push out the local flavor. Carrboro abuts Chapel Hill and is more liberal. The school is fantastic, however, and if you’re into sports, there’s nothing better than going to a UNC v. Duke basketball game. You might have to sell your kidney to get a ticket, but hey – you have two of them, so you’ll be alright. Chapel Hill is in Orange County. The Orange County schools are the best in the state. Pretty good music scene there, too. Check out the Cat’s Cradle to see if anybody cool will be playing.

  • In state tuition at UNC and NCSU is fantastically low. They are great places to take some continuing ed classes. I’ve studied at 4 universities and NCSU, in my experience, has some of the best hard sciences and engineering classes around. The local universities are a fantastic resource.

  • Durham used to be sketchy and dangerous, but it’s pretty cool now (in spite of the loathing for Duke that resides deep in my cockled heart). Much of the town has been cleaned up and there’s a lot of neat stuff going on there now. Access to the Eno River park is easy from Durham. It’s a cool place with a great annual festival.

  • Raleigh is really growing up. Downtown was a ghost town with empty stores and angry bums when I was young. Now it is vibrant with a bunch of fantastic restaurants, a public space for concerts, some cool museums, and active nightlife. The Glenwood South area is a strip of bars that are popular. Restaurants owned by Ashely Christensen (who was just on Iron Chef) are superb and popular. Historic Oakwood is an old neighborhood that has been gentrified over the past 15 yrs or so. There are some cool houses there. The Five Points area is a good place to live (if you want to live in Raleigh and are looking for a home in a central location). Lily’s Pizza at Five Points is fantastic pizza.

  • Some Tea Partiers took over the Wake County (Raleigh) school board last year and took a dump on the local school system. The outrage has been high and even made it to national news, since Wake County previously was considered to have a really good and interesting school system. The upcoming school board election is sure to see the Tea Partiers kicked out.

  • SAS (Statistical Software) is based in Cary and is one of the highest rated employers in the country. They have a Montessori school on campus that is fantastic. The owners of SAS have donated boat loads of money to the area. Among other things, they’ve built a fantastic system of trails near the (new) NC Art Museum (which itself is fantastic). The “Greenway” in Raleigh is a system of biking/running trails that snakes throughout the city and into Umstead Park (a great state park between Raleigh and the airport).

  • The NC Farmers Market in Raleigh is just awesome for getting fresh veggies and fruit. There’s a seafood market there, too. The NC State Fair is in October and is a ton of fun. It’s the largest state fair after Texas. The Fairgrounds are near the art museum and the RBC Center, where the Carolina Hurricanes and NCSU basketball teams play.

  • Commuting into and out of RTP can be heinous, but it’s nothing like the parking lot that is 495 around DC.

  • It takes about 2 hours to get to the beach in Wilmington-area and about 3 to the Atlantic Beach area. It makes for a really easy weekend trip. Beaufort is a cool funky town on the coast, where Blackbeard lived. The NC coast and Outer Banks truly are one of the best natural resources in the country.

  • It takes about 4 hours to get to the mountains from RTP. Asheville is a cool little city and worth checking out. There are some piss clam ski resorts in the mountains.

  • The NC Zoo is in Asheboro, about 45 minutes from Raleigh. That’s fun.

  • Don’t get confused about the difference between the Inner Beltline (440), the Outer Beltline (540) the Inner Loop (clockwise on 440) and the Outer Loop (counter-clockwise on 440). This boggles a lot of people’s minds. Street signs refer to the Inner and Outer loops (so named prior to the existence of 540) when you’re driving around parts of Raleigh.

  • Cary and Apex adjoin Raleigh and have grown dramatically recently. Apex used to be a great place to put your broke down car on cinder blocks and kick chickens on your way to the pig pen in your backyard, but I hear there are some cool things out there now. Cary and Morrisville aren’t my favorites, but a lot of people like it out there. I’m probably just nostalgic for when there actually were cows on Kildare Farm and not a bunch of strip malls.

  • IMHO, it’s better to live in closer to the center of either Durham or Raleigh, not out in North Raleigh or the other McMansion burbs around. Most of the cool stuff is centrally located. Avoid if possible: Clayton, Knightdale, Zebulon, Morrisville.

  • NC BBQ is delicious. Well, Eastern NC (vinegar-based sauce). Western NC (ketchup-based sauce) people can keep their BBQ to themselves.

So – fire away with any more specific questions. I’m happy to answer.

My wife and I lived there for about 2 1/2 years, and hated it. We had moved down following a good job offer she had, and she hated it so much that we moved back to Michigan with no good job prospects just to get away.

If you are going to live down there, I strongly recommend living on the south side of I-40–Chapel Hill, Cary, etc. Much nicer areas than north of the highway–Durham. Suburban Raleigh doesn’t seem too bad, but you couldn’t pay me enough to live in Raleigh itself.

The upsides to the area: great Mexican food choices, Chapel Hill is a nice college town (but very expensive), the beach is only a bit less than 3 hours away, several universities nearby so decent job and educational opportunities, the mountains are also only a couple of hours away, there’s a great barbeque restaurant in Durham (The Q-Shack!), the winters are mild.

Downsides: constant water shortages, broiling summers, lowbrow rednecks everywhere, quite significant racial tensions in the area, overpriced housing (though food costs are lower than up here), cockroaches the size of your head (you probably have those in Maryland too, though), and people who just were flat unfriendly to “Northerners” (ironic given that I grew up in the South, but had moved down from Michigan after being in the North only after I was almost 30 years old).

YMMV, obviously, but we were happy to put the place in our rear-view mirrors.

We love living in Raleigh. We’re close to downtown and there’s lots of great restaurants within a stone’s throw from there.

The summer is HOT. The last few have been brutal so be aware of that …

The beach is close enough for weekend or even day trips (if you get an early start).

There’s something of an opinion war between people who live inside the beltline and those who live outside. Choose wisely. :P (Inside The Beltline fo’ lyfe!)

Oh, and if you like hockey there’s some sort of sports team here that is reportedly pretty good.

I have no idea where BennyProfane lived, because Raleigh and Durham are anything but hostile to northerners. You’ll find that in the more rural areas, but as Clay said, the area is very heavily populated by transplants at this point. Also, The Q-Shack is terrible.

Clay covered pretty much everything I can think of off hand, although I can recommend living south of Raleigh so long as you don’t stray east into Clayton. North Raleigh (north of the beltline) is pretty soulless, as is Cary and Morrisville, but inside the beltline is awesome. Chapel Hill and Durham are fun to visit.

Here’s my top 3 NC BBQ restaurants:

#1 Grady’s in Dudley (south of Goldsboro)
#2 Allen & Son’s north of Chapel Hill and/or in Pittsboro (though they only cook on gas at that location, I think)
#3 Wilber’s in Goldsboro

I just moved here about 2 months ago from Knoxville, TN, following my fiancee’s scholastic endeavours at NCSU. I came down jobless and remain that way, which I find disappointing, as I was constantly told that the RTP area (Research Triangle Park, the massive tech center between Raleigh, Chapel Hill, and Durham) had been less mangled than most other parts of the nation. I think I’m fairly employable, but it could be that I am underqualified here and that the job market is fine.

Gas is more expensive than it was in Tennessee, about on par with what it is in Kentucky, and is significantly cheaper than California–if you’ve never been to any of those places, I can’t help you compare :). Food costs are slightly higher than TN (say, $3.50 for the cheapest milk at Walmart), but this is offset by a lower tax rate (seems to be about 6% in my municipality) and, I think, a lower (eliminated?) tax rate on some classes of groceries. Wine and beer are sold at the grocery stores, but all liquor is relegated to (as far as I can tell–could be wrong again) some very nice, large state-owned ABC outlets.

Housing seems pretty reasonable in price compared to the historically cheap market in Tennessee, but the amount of apartment/condo you get for your dollar and the locations you can get it in are astonishing. Almost every complex we toured with openings in the $550-700 range (no idea what your housing needs and payment abilities are) featured huge, well-maintained pools or ponds, carefully sculpted landscaping, “woodland” environs, high-end amenities, and easy interstate access. On the other hand, even the nicest places can get a lot of big bugs (SO MANY SPIDERS!), and utility cost seems higher here.

NCSU is a surprisingly decent school given that I had never heard of it despite living so close. It’s huge, in relatively good condition, and highly spirited. In-state tuition is pretty low, but out of state is prohibitive, and my fiancee’s ACM (Academic Common Market, enabling Southeastern students to get in-state tuition at schools if uni’s in their home state don’t offer their preferred graduate program) petition was rejected for unstated reasons, so it’s a bit less of a value for us. Put down roots in the area and it’s a phenomenal value with good staff and slightly less maddening bureaucracy than usual.

Downtown Raleigh seems relatively hip, with a good mix between glossy high-rises studded with national chains on one street and tree-lined, 2-story brick buildings featuring local color (and maybe a couple of bums) 2 minutes of walking away. Public transportation is decent for a sprawling Southern city, but the bus lines are going to take you awhile to figure out unless you’ve already got experience with them. No subway, if that’s your thing (God I miss Boston). Parking seems to hover around $2/hour in the lots I’ve found, and $7-10 event parking was typical in the Convention Center area when I was attending MLG Raleigh (if you are a gamer, MLG is a great LAN that will hopefully roll through the area again next year).

There are an inordinate number of food options in the area, and a lot of the smaller ones may not even show up in cursory searches. Ethnic foods are a much bigger deal here than in a lot of middling-to-big Southern cities I’ve been to (Knoxville, Lexington, Atlanta, New Orleans pre-Katrina), and the options are almost limitless and–yes–the Thai food is actually spicy (thank the Gods). Tons of little international markets of various sorts, too, if you’re into that.

The “American” dining I’ve experienced (all distinctly low-brow; I’m surviving on the fumes of savings at this point, as my fiancee’s income from the university is paltry at best) seems heavily centered on fried food and barbeque, and I’ve got no issue with that. I’m not actually a giant fan of vinegar-based barbeque (blame it on the Memphis proximity of my younger days), but this stuff is growing on me quick. Cook Out replaces Krystal/White Castle as the dirt-cheap, dirt-covered burger joint of choice for drunkards and poor college kids, but there are more upscale options.

North Raleigh (and the definition of just where North starts seems heavily debatable) is studded with some high-end strip malls (valet parking at a strip mall? Jesus) and cloistered housing developments I’ll never be wealthy enough to be a gardener for are scattered around, too. North Raleigh just sort of keeps going up and up, getting wealthier and wealthier, so I’ve got little experience with that.

I live in the Southwestern outcropping of the city, a couple of miles from Downtown, NCSU, Cary, and Garner. Already spoken to the first two, so the latter: Cary is a smaller, very “fashionable” but mid-range community. More expensive than Raleigh, but even more wooded, and carefully controlled (no signs for restaurants/stores aside from ground level brick placements with muted colors). It does have some signs of recent invasion by corporate America (the mall is thriving, and there are way too many tiny shopping centers hidden behind walls of trees to count), but if you’re looking for a pleasant place to drive around (rather than park and walk, like downtown), it’s nice. Bookstores, restaurants, and a really sizable Indian subcontinent neighborhood give it some flavor, and there’s even a cute little “downtown” area I recently discovered with an old-fashioned pharmacy complete with a soda fountain/milkshake bar :)

Garner just seems like a less dense southern Raleigh. It’s got some stores, some housing, and a lot of highway between it all. The Walmart there is the most persistently out-of-stock store I’ve ever had the misfortune of shopping weekly at :/. The one in middle/north Raleigh is a lot more ramshackle and difficult to get to for me, so I deal. Cary’s got a regular old Walmart, being renovated into a Super, so it’s no good either, if you need to keep your shopping cheap. Harris Teeter and Food Lion are big here if you can afford to spend more, and there’s plenty of organic food stores, too, given how educated and upscale the area is.

Finally, while there are “main drags” (I’ve come to know Tryon, New Bern, Western, Cary Towne, Walnut, S. Saunders, Capitol, and Atlantic fairly well) through town, Google maps and personal experience suggests that the interstates are often the fastest way to move around Raleigh itself (obviously you’ll use them to get to and from RTP/Durham/Chapel Hill, but you will typically stay on them or transfer onto interstate-esque state highways until you’re almost right on top of your destination). Knoxville was small enough that this wasn’t necessary (although it was doable), and the only other place I’ve ever lived a significant span of time in (Boston) was spent as a car-less student, so I’ve got no idea how this compares to other towns.

And that’s my unemployed newbie’s take on Raleigh :)

Thanks for all the feedback, especially Clay and Armando for the extensive travel guides! I’ll be passing all this onto my wife and I’m sure she’ll have some more questions.

We’re a family of 5, with kids in elementary. middle and high school. My job (environmental management/aquaculture) has always had us in coastal/vacation destination type towns (Southampton NY, Cape Cod, Mass and now Annapolis, MD) so we’ve typically been in more expensive to live areas on a decidedly middle class salary. Just looking through some real estate listings we can get a lot more house for the money down there than here and overall from whats been said it seems the cost of living is a bit lower.

I know we’re not going to be able to see everything, but before we even think about having my wife apply for jobs down that way, we need to know if its someplace we can see ourselves in. And I happen to love Barbecue, mmmmm BBQ.

Are there any areas that should be absolutely avoided?

My wife and I have previously checked out Charleston and found the people there really nice, as a matter of fact just about everyone we’ve met from the Carolinas have been great.

As a family of 5, you might consider living in Apex (not a long commute). It’s very family friendly and some guys here at work with kids really like it there.

Don’t be dissin’ the Q-Shack. Their version of Texas barbeque is quite good. Now if you like that piss-thin vinegary crap they try to shove down your throats down there, then yea, its probably not your first choice.

They also have Cheerwine in their soda machine!

And be prepared for a lot of annoying BBQ arguments if you move here. Just saying. :)

@Shellfishguy

There’s an area south of Martin Luther King Blvd in South Raleigh, around Dorathea Drive/Central Prison, that is decidedly sketchy. Actual crime is relatively low thanks to the sheer number of cops in the area, but I’d be very willing to bet that your wife wouldn’t like the look of it and wouldn’t want her kids anywhere near it.

There are some stretches of S. Saunders road that run through a low-income neighborhood or three; lots of pawn shops, ethnic food shops, and run down shopping centers, plus a weird amount of pedestrian traffic given the fact that it’s basically a 4-6 lane highway. Now, I happen to actually live really close to this and have found everyone I’ve met super friendly and pleasant, but if you’re shooting to make a good impression, it’s probably not the best first sight.

Cary and Apex are great middle class areas for families from what I’ve heard and seen, and the area of North Raleigh closest to Raleigh proper would also fit the bill.

Thanks Warren, we’ll be sure to check it out. As for BBQ, I’m more than willing to sit down and do taste tests as long as folks want to see which is better!

And thanks again Armando, good stuff to know.

I knew that this was exactly what you would say, but you’re wrong. So terribly, horribly wrong. I will allow that it is probably the best Texas-style barbecue in the area, but it’s still terrible. And you can just shut your little whore mouth about eastern NC barbecue, Bub.

The area that you mention – near Central Prison – also happens to be near a neighborhood that’s pretty cool, called Boylan Heights.

Southeast Raleigh tends to be the least safe – Solar Road, areas south of New Bern Avenue, east of South Saunders Street, and north of I-440. Stay clear of that and you’re golden. Since you’re in Environmental Management, you should take a look at the Marine Lab that is jointly run by UNC and Duke, located in Beaufort, NC (or maybe technically in Morehead City). There are far far worse places to spend time. Beaufort is sort of like a sleepy mini-Charleston (population 3500 during the off-season).

Apex has the advantage of having shortcuts into RTP that avoid the main highways. I hear there’s a good brew pub out there these days. Plus, I’m sure it’s cheaper than living in Raleigh. I know a real estate agent that I can connect you with if you’re interested. She’s young, hip and very friendly and probably could give you a better sense of schools and neighborhoods. Just PM me and let me know if you want her info.

Given the coming uproar in the BoA thread. . . any good, open-to-anyone credit unions or small banks (those that offer free checking and no fee for using outside ATMs would be phenomenal, as I still travel to Tennessee and Kentucky a lot to see family and friends) in the area?

First Citizens is a good smallish local bank. I’m not sure about their fees. There are a lot of “Cash Points” ATMs around that are associated with the State Employees Credit Union that offer no-fee withdrawals, so that’s nice.

If your SO is getting any sort of stipend from the University, she should qualify for the State Employees Credit Union, which would also qualify you. The NCSECU is pretty excellent.

Thanks Clay, we’ll see how the visit goes next weekend and if it looks like a place we’re really into, I’ll take you up on that.