Indeed.
I haven’t put that much time in to it, but other posts on the steam forum suggests it doesn’t change much later on.
You can basically place around 4 wall sections each wave (not counting the first couple where you only get one) and since there are only like 6-10 waves in the levels, you can’t really maze that much.
Sanctum 2 is awfully bland and pointless.
Super Sanctum TD is okay. I think it was meant to be some sort of throwaway game. Got a few bugs to iron out, but it’s giving me the TD fix that I crave. I got it free when I preordered. I’m not sure it’s quite worth full price.
Ok, I sadly cannot recommend this game to anyone.
There is basically no hope of any of this crap being fixed as the developers are on the steam forum supporting all changes and (in a friendly enough way) telling people who don’t like sanctum 2 to go play sanctum 1.
One of them even says “The 10 tower limit is something that makes Sanctum 2 a better game” and links to another post where someone says that the tower limit was (hold on a second while I attempt not to snicker) not due to console limitations and was instead to increase tactical choices. So they are standing behind these choices pretty strongly for the most part.
I just don’t know what i’m going to do if Anomaly 2 sucks too… I preordered both due to my strong faith in the developers from their previous game. Thankfully I did not buy the season pass for sanctum 2.
Fuck this game.
I can’t place down many walls and I can’t have many towers. Things just run past my towers, barely taking any damage and then everything is attacking my core. No matter what I do I feel like I need to do 90% of the damage and my towers are completely useless.
Somehow this game has an 85 on metacritic. It also has a 3.1 user review and the steam forums are full of complaints/surprise. I’m probably going to create an account on metacritic just to rate it down.
Metascore = 85/100 based on 4 critic reviews. User Score = 3.3
I really wish I’d played the 85% version.
Well. With some time in, this is no Sanctum 1. A lot of the complaints have merit and I am waiting for the “oh I see moment” to help make some of the professional reviews not seem ludicrous. Towers can play a big role still though and the developers point about making tactical choices on where and which towers to use the ten placements available does seem true. However, the real problem comes down to the fact that players have so little to do (only one person can build during build phase) that it ultimately becomes a shooter with huge downtime for 1-3 other people in a multiplayer setting.
The main push of the game seems to be to make a choke point for all creep entry points then stack your 10 towers there to maximize damage. This doesn’t really become part of the game until the last level of the first area “Facility.” And again, even with this new game design it is fundamentally flawed in that it will at best most of the players stand around between waves and at worst become a grief fest/ race for the resources.
The game with the 10 tower limit could still be kept and save the game if:
Without these changes or something similar, you have a boring shooter for the 3 out of 4 players that didn’t hug the core at the end of the match. And ultimately you have a game which gives 3 out of 4 players nothing to do or think about in the game outside of character, weapon, and perk select and shooting. That is, nothing to do besides shooting during creep phase once the match begins. Boring.
Proof towers can matter if nontraditional tower defense:
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/577863562371552798/C7156278EF3CE7952FA7002023D6412C72D2B85A/
Yes, there are some maps where they can matter. Sadly, like the 2nd or 3rd map in the game is designed to make towers basically useless.
However, you can upgrade towers more in the first game and when you do, they often gain interesting specials. All of that is gone here.
The tower limit just means you need to focus your choke point A LOT more instead of being able to plan out a more complex tower defense. I’ve played A LOT of tower defense games. I probably own all of the one on steam. This is the first one I’ve played that has such a stupid, low limit on towers.
I am playing single player and the game feels like 90% a bland fps and 10% a tower defense. Not to mention I fought some boss earlier that walked straight through my walls and towers, destroying them as it went. Then the game became 100% fps and 0% tower defense.
Contrast this with Anomaly 2 which I also preordered and came out today as well. It is basically anomaly 1++. The gameplay is basically the same, but it has new mechanics which enhance it. It also has the host of new units, new enemies and new maps you’d expect, but the sanctum guys just had to pull a dragon age 2 and fuck over their original audience to appeal to their new console audience.
So far, this is a stinker. The shooting isn’t even satisfying, and that’s like 80% of the game now.
The towers are individually more powerful than they were in the first game, but the maps are much smaller and the resources you get are so gimped that you can’t build much anyway. (Not that it would matter with a 10 tower cap.) I feel like Coffee Stain is trolling everyone.
Edit: It’s especially aggravating since Super Sanctum TD (the free preorder mini-game) has more maze-building and tower placement strategy because it’s a vanilla TD game.
I don’t really agree with people that the towers didn’t mean much individually in the first game.
To me, building one maxed out lightning tower (example) was always better than building a bunch of level 1 towers. This is because the power of these towers increased exponentially as their level increased and they often gained special abilities.
In sanctum 1, i would always end up having 3-5 uber maxed out towers and a bunch of level 1s. The level 1s would do nice stuff like do lots of shots on soakers and add in extra damage, but the main work was always done by my maxed towers and by own weapons. Where the game really got fun for me was the maps that allowed you to build a really good position and upgrade your towers a lot more (mostly due to number of waves). Seeing your maze of death deal with hordes of enemies was very satisfying, to me at least.
In sanctum 1 you could choose to go tower focused or weapon focused (but still using towers of course) due to picking between upgrading your towers or your weapon. Sanctum 2 removes that choice and acts like you spend 90% of your money on your weapon each phase.
In sanctum 2 it is just kind of depressing on the few larger maps to see my walls up and then see a few towers spaced between them, lonely.
New patch out. While I have not played the patched version, the notes point towards a vastly improved cooperative experience that should be closer to the original game with tweaks (rather than a totally different beast with a sequel name).
Patch notes (v1.0.19094)
Major changes due to player feedback include:
*Tower Cap has been changed to 15
*Tower Resources now drop for all players in a co-op game! (other parts of the game have been re-balanced to accommodate this)
*More tower-bases now drop in earlier waves
Minor changes include:
We want to thank our players that have given us constructive feedback on what improvements they would like to see in our game. We’ve been working overtime to deliver these changes before the weekend to make sure everyone can enjoy Sanctum 2 during their days off. However, this is just the start. We want you to rest assured knowing that we’ll keep on updating and patching Sanctum 2 based on feedback from our amazing community!
If they don’t increase the tower resources, higher tower cap won’t affect much. I’ve played about 1/3 of the game now and you’re given so few resources that really can’t do very much.
Of course the other assumption is it is just a co-op focused change and they couldn’t give a damn about single player people.
Anyway, this is probably one of the worst melt down of a sequel i’ve ever seen. They keep saying they are listening to player feedback, but they have developers on the steam forums saying if you don’t like it, go back to sanctum 1. It is almost worse that they say it in a nice enough way.
The main problem with them is they are a complete hive mind, true believers. They Know (with a capital K) that everyone will like sanctum better this way and they can’t perceive that people wouldn’t agree, so they only see what they want to see. This is why you see them saying this when there are so many people complaining.
In any event, the game isn’t bad (somethin i will probably go in to more later), but i expected more from the makers of sanctum 1 than just “Not bad.”
Yeah, it is bringing back flashbacks to the early days of Sword of the Stars 1 and trying to have a reasonable discussion on the Kerberos forums.
I agree on the not bad part. I don’t hate it, but I do feel it could have been much more. Also, I can’t decide if this is a “mother knows best” or a ‘one hit wonder that they don’t know what they did’ type deal. Or maybe it is brilliant and I can’t see the forest for the towers, but gamers are a fickle bunch and we have wandering eyes so Coffee Stain doesn’t have much more time for the revolution to take hold.
There are lots of subgenres in tower defense. What can be more fun for some person, can be more boring to other. But I am a kinda “The artist rules, and you vote with your wallet”. I have a disagreement with the idea of “the people give feedback, and the artist follow that feedback”.
vs
Well, except the original release of Sanctum 2 had the “artistic vision” that 3 out of 4 people like to do nothing other than watch 1 person play a Tower Defense game most of a match.
I don’t understand the dislike of negative feedback some have. I’d think it would be a good thing for companies.
Two scenarios:
I am unhappy with the changes they made in sanctum 2. In response I don’t buy the season pass or future games by the company. The developer doesn’t know why their sales are going down and it comes as a shock since they expected fans to like it more.
I am unhappy with the changes they made in sanctum 2. In response to this, i complain on the official forums, mentioning the changes they made i don’t like and warning them that if they continue to do things i don’t like, i will not buy their future games and will recommend people i know with similar taste not to buy them either (because they also probably won’t like them).
In this case the company can/has to make a decision of whether they gain enough customers from the changes to make up for the ones they lost. If it is a net gain, it is understandable if they refuse to undo the changes. Although it is also understandable if the people hurt by the changes aren’t thrilled with the company.
Either way the company is aware people have issues with certain aspects.
Anyway, i still think that the main problem with sanctum 2 was the developers surrounded themselves with yes men and then were surprised when people had issues with the changes made to make it more console friendly. They seem like a pretty small company. You can basically tell this from them having actual developers and not PR people responding to messages on the steam forums (which is probably a bad idea but i kind of like it, even if i don’t like what they are saing). I hope for their sake and for mine, as a HUGE fan of tower defense games, that they can pull through this and find their… sanctum.
Also, as a general note, i like tower defense games where the player takes an active role. I think it lets you actually see your towers in action better when you’re right in the middle of things. However, I want the game to be a tower defense with a fps secondary component, NOT the other way around.
I basically have to completely disagree with you Teiman. To me “the people give feedback, and the artist follow that feedback IF they want their return business” is perfectly reasonable and helpful for both the customer and the company. Obviously the company doesn’t have to follow their feedback, but then they shouldn’t be surprised when they lose those customers. In the case of games, if you sell your game as one thing and surprised gamers are disappointed when they give you their money and the game turns out to be something else entirely, they, in my opinion, have a right to be disappointed and complain. This isn’t a charity or people feeling entitled. People paid money for a product that was potentially misleading as to the contents.
They seem to be very fast at responding to the criticism and making changes to their game. A new patch was just released.
Major updates:
- Resources no longer drop by the core, players recieve resources directly now.
- Towers are more powerful now; upgrade bonuses at new level thresholds are significantly higher.
- Players can now share their resources with other players by injecting their resources into other players, similar to when you upgrade towers. Do this by aiming at another player and hold LMB (tower resources) or RMB (tower bases).
*Resources required to upgrade a tower is now displayed in the upgrade bar.
*Swarm enemies (Runners, Pups, Snorkers) will come in much larger groups now instead of one at a time to differentiate them more from other enemies and make AoE better against them. Let the gibs, intestines and blood fly!
http://forum.coffeestainstudios.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2432
Towers being much more powerful might be enough to fix some of the major problems with the game.
I used to be a big fps gamer, so i’m not terrible at aiming by any means, however i’m a much bigger tower defense player. Early game there were a couple maps that my towers did 80% of the damage, but the longer i went on, the more my damage went up and the tower damage went down. Yes, there are a very low number of maps which work REALLY well with towers, but there are just as many maps that are anti tower where your towers basically suck.
I’d say i generally do around 60%-80% damage, much more often on the high end than the low end. This is with me always trying to take the time to design cool mazes and killing fields for my towers.
Things that contribute to really low tower damage:
[ul]
[li]More enemies that are immune to damage except in a weak point that your towers can’t hit[/li][li]Really low tower range and maps that don’t let most towers get in range of enemies more than the bare minimum[/li][li]ALMOST NO RESOURCES![/li][/ul]
In a real tower defense game, i’d expect if i focus on towers to do at most 50% damage, but probably less.
Also, any amount of play testing would have shown that some of these were bad decisions. I give some amount of slack because they are a small company, but that only goes so far.
It’s nice that they are reacting to the feedback, but I’m a little stunned that they didn’t see this coming before they launched. The design of the game at launch was awful. They made the game so a lot more of it depended on the shooter aspect, but the actual gunplay is terrible. Guns don’t have any “oomph” and the enemies are brain dead so they’re not even interesting to fight.
Ok i tried out this patch for a while today. It helps, but not enough.
I’m still doing 80% or more of the damage.
Some of this is poor map design. Well, the maps are specifically designed to be “Fuck You Tower Defense Fans” maps where your towers are near useless no matter what you do. Sadly, these maps seem more common later on. Some people might like these maps, but i don’t because they seriously damage the tower defense aspect of the game. I hated them in orcs must die and i hate them in sanctum 2. Just let me play a tower defense game you assholes.
Even with increased damage, the super low range of basically every tower except the long range sniping ones means that even with the slow tower, which is basically required in every level, enemies don’t spend much time under fire even in a maze. Here is where the new and improved “Fuck You Tower Defense Fans” maps come in. When you add the inability to maze at all with low tower range, you get ineffective towers and the player doing all of the damage.
Then there is resources which are still broken. I get enough to create one small to mid cost tower each wave on my current map. That is bullshit.
I’m starting to suspect that tower balance sucks.
In Sanctum 2 you can pick significantly fewer towers. i think it is 5 total from memory. 2 of those are reserved for slow and lightning, which are required for every level.
Note: no matter what towers i take from below, the vast majority of my limited money is spent on slow and lightning.
Cannon sucks from what i can tell. The damage per second is too low and they seem ineffective against enemies which are hugely armored in the front but vulnerable to lightning.
Gatling has too low range. Enemies out range it way too easily for it to be worth it.
Missile launcher is ok, but fires so slowly and does pretty low damage. The damn missiles will also hit in to stuff pretty often. I end up taking this one a decent amount.
Drone is situational. It does constistant, low damage. Against normal enemies, this is mediocre, but against heavy enemies where your other towers do zero damage, this can be nice. If i know i’m facing a lot of heavies, i tend to take this tower.
Scatter Tower: i do like this one. It is like a gatling tower without the crippling range. The high range makes it actually usable on most maps. Good for the small guys that rush your core.
ACP: I can’t figure out a use for this. It is constantly pulsing from what i can tell, but the problem with this is that it is slow as hell, so most stuff just runs by it without getting hit. They should have made this only drop when an enemy is near so that at least it gets the first hit.
Violator: I take this on most maps simply because of the range. They don’t seem nearly as effective as the first game at killing stuff, but given the range problems most towers face on almost every map, these are very handy.
Laser tower: I just got this but initial impressions are so so. They seem completely ineffective unless you have a max slow tower AND a good maze. The damage is high if you get them going though so maybe in a perfect situation they could be good.
There is an exception. Some of the “Fuck You Tower Defense Fans” maps are made in such a way that a lightning tower can’t get range on enemies. In that case i’m forced to use the crappy cannon towers and load up on other ranged towers, because i have no choice.
After playing sanctum 1 with tons of towers that are basically all good choices, sanctum 2 is hugely disappointing by having a very limited number of towers, most of which suck.
Sanctum 2 is definitely more of a hybrid than the original. It feels a lot like Iron Brigade, actually. I’m digging it, but I can definitely understand why tower defense fans wouldn’t like it.