Though I make exceptions for Darth Jar Jar defenses, because those make me laugh.
I think the point is that George tried to play with new ideas and new conceptions of the Star Wars universe. Compared to TFA, which I think most people agree doesn’t contain a lot of new things, I can understand why people are giving more credit to the prequels. I personally think midichlorians and almost all of the ideas in the prequels are horrible, but George was taking a stab at doing something different.
Anecdotally, yes. I had a great time the first time through, posted a few critiques and read a dozen pages of this thread, went back to see it again with average-at-best expectations, and remembered why I was so delighted leaving the theater the first time.
I see that more as a form of Stockholm Syndrome. The mind coping with trauma.
I’d also say that the Disney Star Wars Rebels is much more true to the original form of Star Wars than TFA.
I don’t think George was trying to do anything truly different in the prequels… they’re just unfiltered George Lucas. Read the first draft of Star Wars, it’s the prequelliest thing ever to prequel.
GENERAL
Is there anyone here so naive he believes the Empire would even bother negotiating if they were contemplating destruction of this System? Your Excellencies, this is more than a simple raid on your resources. You must reach a decision.
MIR NASH, a thin, birdlike senator, turns to the general.
NASH
General Skywalker, war is a serious business… a deadly business.
GENERAL
Procrastination is a deadly business, Senator. War is my business. Have you approved my defense measures?
The GRANDE MOUFF TARKIN wears the long, black robes of the Aquilaean religion. He speaks with a high, cracking voice.
TARKIN
An actual war with the Empire is still only a remote possibility. As a military treatise, your proposal has certain merits, but in the harsh light of reality, an attack against the Empire appears to be a somewhat extreme defense.
NASH
You must understand, General, we are interested in avoiding a war, not starting one.
GENERAL
There are times when offense makes the best defense. If that Allience Treaty isn’t signed, we will need all of the advantage we can get.
KAYOS
Count Sandage, I want you to head the delegation to Alderaan. You will leave tomorrow with our answer regarding the Treaty. My decision will be forthcoming.
The senators whisper among themselves.
SCINTILLATING. Read the whole thing if you’d like to see what one draft and no collaboration gets you… you know, if three movies weren’t enough:
The prequels are also constantly cannibalizing the original trilogy, they’re just so stultifying as a viewing experience it doesn’t always register.
Nah I just judge movies as finished products. And there are lots of new things George added to the star wars universe, bringing in galactic politics, jedi training, Coruscant, etc. Can you think of a similar scene in the OT to any of the Senate scenes in the prequels? Closest I can think of is the Imperial Boardroom scene on the Deathstar in New Hope. Or how about that dreadful arena battle Clone Wars? Like I said i think the new ideas were failures but George was adding new stuff (although I’d argue the new stuff was pretty lazy).
Oy, the senate stuff…
It’s all in the execution I guess. One of my favorite episodes of Clone Wars is Heroes on Both Sides (it even boldly takes on the dumbest assertion from the RotS crawl!) from season 3 in which a profiteering effort to deregulate the banks is nearly thwarted until an engineered “terrorist” attack leads to its passage, with the senate vote conducted under the sinister red glow of the auxiliary lights. Good stuff.
I was being sarcastic. The fact that you didn’t notice that shows that you’re just looking for an excuse to trot out the same tired arguments again.
Nope.
It’s one of Abrams’ frequently used “see what I did there” moments. SEE! JUST LIKE LEIA DID!
OMG I’m now convinced more than ever.
“Luke got training while Rey didn’t” is just total bullshit.
Because Yoda is a fucking terrible teacher, and if anything, he did more harm than good whenever he was involved:
So Rey is more capable because she was never corrupted by Yoda!
Purposefully, and in quite a clever way if the ‘ring theory’ is to be believed.
I’m not trying to say it’s good! It clearly isn’t. But I’d say it is new for the series. I’m not saying new and original is always good but I think it’s a fair comparison to say that the prequels brought more new things to the table than TFA even if they were worse movies than TFA.
The ‘ring theory’ as some formalist case for quality is mystifying to me though. If true, great, he constructed this puzzle box of thing, full of rhymes, utterly unwatchable. Time better spent on story and characters, I’d say.
What I find new and exciting in TFA is in the realm of character, performance, and inclusivity. Poe hiding a thumbdrive in BB-8 isn’t even a hint of a problem to me, but I understand that too much of that sort of thing is a real roadblock for many.
Sure. New stuff is appreciated. I don’t think anyone would have any issue with the new stuff if it hadn’t sucked. But they did. Like, really badly.
Not only was the implementation ham-handed, but the actual stuff was just wrong-headed. No one but the most EU-obsessed fans wanted to know anything about the galactic senate or trade embargoes in the Star Wars universe. No confidence votes? Movements to table? Who the Hell cares?
Think about the elegant way this was handled in the original movie. You got two quick lines about what was going on back in the senate, then Tarkin busts into a meeting and announces that the senate was dissolved. That’s all you needed because the movie wasn’t about securing votes and political maneuvers. It was about using magic and spaceships to stop an evil empire from blowing up planets with a giant laser.
I totally agree. It’s fascinating that he constructed the movies this way, but ultimately it means little if they’re unwatchable dross. :)
But still, he does deserve some credit for the structure.
But in the prequels, there wasn’t an evil empire blowing up planets with a giant laser. The unseen antagonist, the spectral bad guy, was in fact a political animal. So of course they would touch on drier material like important votes, voting blocs, and power plays.
The degree to which it bugs people is certainly variable, including not bugging them at all.
I’m more curious about whether anyone thought it was a good thing to have these type of overly-similar elements. Did it bring comfort to anyone, like a good bowl of chicken noodle soup, to see the droid hunt on a desert planet reenacted, or similar scenes/elements?
Personally, I’ve always enjoyed sequels for the familiarity of the characters and, to a degree, the settings. I don’t look for (or look forward to) familiarity of the plot elements.
I found it interesting that Abrams went there with both ST:ID and TFA, and frankly did so even more with TFA. He didn’t seem to feel the need to do so with the first ST.
I think we can all agree that prequels are bad. But as you just said they brought new things to the table. You might not like those new things, I know I don’t, but they weren’t a rehash or a homage or a reboot. The prequels were inject new (and bad) ideas into the Star Wars universe. TFA was better than the prequels, for sure, but brought nothing new to the table (unless we want to go back to Mary Sue discussions).