Great thread. I’ve exhausted all of my thoughts on the matter until I see Ep3 sometime in the next few years. Maybe next month, I dunno.
All I’m sayin’ is that, on the whole, the Empire ain’t so bad. :P
as a non- jedi/wookie/woman/vocal opponent of the empire, you’d say that.
anyway, we are all pulling on the same rope. up with palpatine!
Stormtroopers are white and masculine, I’m white and masculine. Coincidence? I think not. :)
I’ll probably go see Ep3 this weekend.
I used to be in that camp, but Ep. III kind of changed my mind. Although it’s imporant to note that the SW films are clearly “historical,” and very obviously told from the perspective of the Jedi, and therefore given to certain biases and inaccuracies. It’s not at all hard to imagine a retelling from the Empire’s perspective that highlights the following facts (some of these are Ep. III SPOILERS):
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Palpatine was elected Chancellor of the Republic.
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Palpatine was granted emergency powers by the Senate.
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The instant they received news that the Clone Wars had ended, the Jedi moved to arrest, and assassinate, Palpatine, who had done nothing wrong illegal (as far as the Jedi knew). This calls the character of the Jedi into question.
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Palpatine had broad support in the Senate for its dissolution, and the conversion of the Republic into the Empire.
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The Empire’s tactics, while sometimes extreme, were necessary to maintain order and stability in the face of an increasingly strong rebellion; this rebel movement was, in fact, much more dangerous to the Empire than the seperatist movement had been, and that movement was the very reason Palpatine was granted emergency powers to begin with. So this is in keeping with the way the Senate had voted while it was in power.
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There is no proof of a connection between Palpatine and the seperatist movement, aside from testimony of the already discredited Jedi.
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Yes, Palpatine is a Sith Lord; however, this only means that he practices the same religion and moral code as the ancient Sith. The Jedi, the ancient enemies of the Sith, say that this makes him inherently evil… in fact, the Jedi were hunting for the Sith Lord they knew existed even before they knew it was him. In contrast, Palpatine ordered the execution of Jedi only after they had tried to assassinate him and take control of the Republic, thus showing themselves to be an extreme and imminent threat to the safety, security, and stability of the Republic. We should judge Palpatine by his actions, not his religion; after all, I’d hate to see Joseph Lieberman condemned to never be President because “Jews cheat people out of money.” Freedom of religion is something that I consider to be an important foundation of a moral government, and it doesn’t really exist if the government leaders must be a member of a mainstream religion.
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I think it has been established above that, regardless of what one might assume if one were to draw conclusions from the way the ancient Sith acted, that Palpatine is an intelligent, able leader, and one who has consistently acted in accordance with the laws of the Republic and with the approval of the Galactic Senate.
So there you have it. Revisionist? Sure, probably. But no more revisionist than the history the Jedi have written may well be. It happened so long, long ago after all, and in such a far away galaxy that we have no hope of knowing exactly what really happened. My guess is that it was somewhere in between.
And [b]so[/b] it begins.
I actually feel a little queasy after reading this thing. Kind of like I felt after Gordon Gekko’s weird greed speech.
“Not with a bang but a whimper.”
-Amanpour
Democracy on such a wide scale (same as in the Star Trek Universe) with aliens and whatnot would be completely unmanagable and is of course relegated to the land of fantasy. I would say that in general democracies tend to not last very long. Too many enemies within as Cicero wrote, and of course politicians constantly pandering to everyones self-interests and playing both sides against each other while they eventually steal the government out from beneath the peoples’ feet. Bread and Circus, folks: keep the people fed and ENTERTAIN them enough and thats all a decadent society(and decadent people) need while you slowly but surely sap them of their rights. Add this to the fact that all men are NOT truly created equal (some are probably born smarter, some are born with natural talents, some are born into families of influence,etc.) and a free society will ALWAYS have poor people. The SECRET is bread and circus: Keep the poor entertained and give them at least enough food to not starve. However, for a democracy to last at least a little while, a STRONG, educated middle class must act as a buffer.
The perversion of Marxisim (socialism=SAME THING) is in breaking down and destroying the Bourgious (or the middle class)which of course means breaking down institutions that create and hold together democracies (and many other civilizations): Marriage and Religion and of course create cheaper and cheaper labor to destroy the middle class (ie OUTSOURCE and pay slave labor wages). I hear that CAFTA (The Central American Free Trade Agreement) is being discussed and I hear you can get 3 Hondurans for the price of ONE Mexican worker. Oh but its FREE TRADE so it must be GOOOOODD. Right? The cheap labor paid to those in Mexico ALSO works to break down and PREVENT Mexico from creating a thriving middle class- capitalism run amok. ALSO, Mexico is a rather socialist country leading of COURSE to even MORE corruption- the only thing thats saved Mexico from complete totalitarianism is its parasitic nature and proximity to the United States. There are other factors such as a STRONG focus on the family but poor peole are so easily manipulated into giving up everything for the communist dream. Anyway modern “free Trade” is just a masquerade for cheaper and cheaper labor that borders on slavery. Why not just ship over a million Chinese, put them in a cave, pay them a penny a day, and throw them a handful of rice to keep them going? Anyway, then you have a situation that the oligargy and the elite can exploit with a weakened middle class: create TRUE class warfare, racial tensions, and play every group against each other forever. By the time this rolls around a democracy is ripe for socialist takeover(or WORSE a Communist or some other sort of totalitatian police state).
Socialism on a widescale eventually leads to the government having and controlling most of the wealth and practically ALL of the power. It is of course only a matter of time before rights begin to peel away and the original culture NO LONGER even slightly resembles what it once was: it can’t afford a powerful military, the corruption that was needed to destroy the family and religious institutions saps the people of ALL sense of nationalism and patriotism, and because everyone is working, especially women, you have to constantly import people for essential labor simply to keep your damn population base. Why? Well, the girls just wanna have fun and be like mike- NOT have babies.
Now, the people you import may not necessarily blend in or respect the current culture(which by this time is irreparably corrupt, decadent, and has NO sense of nationalism/patriotism-the people are likely pacifist sheep ready for takeover,conversion, and thus will either be bred out of existence or slaughtered), but the immigrants are having a LOT more children than you are. You expected them to become like you but YOUR perversions are NOT theirs and they despise you for it: Thats whats going on in Europe. Eurabia is forming and if you don’t believe me check out the baby per woman each white European is having. Good job! The churches are mostly empying out and the MOSQUES are filling up. Like I said: Your perversions and even your “rights” are not theirs and they despise you for your weakness. The whole thing is a mess but thats what happens when you mix marxism with democracy: The two are almost completely at odds with one another. On the OTHER side of the coin with the free trade and rampant capitalism a democracy is likely to lose its structure (its boarders, language, and culture), and conglomerate into a larger nation in order to compete with rivals- who MAY just conglomerate themselves and perhaps eventually we ALL will conglomerate into a one world government(or mostly one world or perhaps just two or three “nations”) which WILL BE TOTOLITARIAN, make no mistake. They will HAVE to be in order to survive. The ONLY stop gap to this is of course nationalistic patriotism and nationalism is the only stop gap that can prevent the dissolution of the middle class (caused by marxist and leninist subversives destroying marriage, sowing perversion and the like, AND internationalist conglomerate capitalists outsourcing middle class jobs) . Its pretty much the only thing that can, in the LONG RUN, save liberty. Hmm, the EU is one such conglomerate that was created due to the corruption of socialism. Right now there is a HUGE surge of nationalism in the Communist slave state of China.
I have to admit, the Chinese are a patient people and have blended several facets into a recipie for sucess while socialism (and IGNORANT capitalism) in the western world rots away any hope of withstanding them when they eventually make their move. Hmmm… Wonder what Sweden will look like in 50 years when the muslims are stoning your pretty blond women in the town square for looking the wrong way or something :P Actually your pretty blonde women most likely won’t even EXIST anymore having been bred out of existance (for the most part) along with your culture, rights, and your nation :) What form of mental insanity causes a nation and culture to essentially self destruct without a bullet or war ever taking place? Its certainly a societal/cultural mental disorder, no doubt about that at least. A man who tolerates practically everything stands for NOTHING and a nation that does the same IS nothing. Trying to simplify this stuff into a small message was probably impossible.
Anyway the whole point of this message is to prove that there are simply too many barriers to running a democracy the size of the Star Wars universe or the Star Trek universe. Not to mention the rank stupidity in expecting every alien to think and act like we do (essentialy of course).
Oh, and of course beware of interlocking corporate MEDIA directorships and the government media complex. If you don’t know what either of these are, then google them.
http://www.fair.org/media-woes/interlocking-directorates.html
That is JUST A TASTE of interlocking directorships and I think you can figure out whats wrong with the whole picture if you look furthur into it. The government media complex is just as dangerous but even more hidden and insidious. I am as right wing as a modern American patriot/nationalist can be but everyone should see both of these things as terrible threats.
Both are EXTREMELY dangerous to the health of a democracy because they essentially create an oligarchy ruled by pluticrats. The people in the US are so disconnected from their government and jerked around with the “bread and circus”(especially the circus) from BOTH of these two dangerous things listed above that they become like so much sheep to be herded around here and there.
{all the while, a man behind a curtain frantically tries to hide the burning pile of eps i & ii dvds and novels with palpatine’s connections and evildoings showcased}
Stormtroopers are white and masculine, I’m white and masculine. Coincidence? I think not. :)
I’ll probably go see Ep3 this weekend.[/quote]
they’re also dumb as a box of hammers and totally expendable conformist dupes(heh “dupes,” geddit?) of the emperor.
i’ll probably see it on the weekend, too.
{all the while, a man behind a curtain frantically tries to hide the burning pile of eps i & ii dvds and novels with palpatine’s connections and evildoings showcased}[/quote]
Not enough of a nerd to own any of those things, I’m afraid. But again: history is written by the winners, and the eventual winners here are the Jedi. That’s who tells the story. Do you mean to tell me that if someone tried to assassinate the president because they suspected that he wasn’t going to cede his power to the next president, you would accept “but he’s pure evil, and the ancient enemy of my religion” as an excuse?
they’re also dumb as a box of hammers and totally expendable conformist dupes(heh “dupes,” geddit?) of the emperor.
Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrn.
Riiiiight.
Even today there are Hitler-loving neo-Naxis living in Everytown, USA. By which I mean, no matter how horrible the crime or despicable the act, there will always be a coupla bozos who manage to grunt “Y’know, maybe Michael Dalmer wasn’t such a bad guy after all…”
Finding and debating ambiguity in a work as facile as Star Wars is really, really lame.
You know, I might be depressed by the moral myopia… I might consider it a retarded (in the real sense) form of (anti-)intellectual debate… I might even enjoy the irony of over-stimulated, under-educated Westerners indulging themselves in ethical exceptionalism while self-consciously defending the Imperial Empire of Evil in an adolescent work of sensationalist fiction, while genuine oppression and military dominance – complete with rebel forces! – spins in the world around them.
I might even particularly enjoy the absolutely wonderful irony that a piece of pop culture – at first easily interpreted as a freedom and independence celebrating piece of propaganda – could gradually become an apparently conscious inditement of that same state! Um, who’s the bad guy again, Mommy?
To use the vernacular: OMGWTFBBQ!!!
All that said, I’m actually writing this off as “I’m so cynical and cool cause I like the bad guy!” bleeting.
i don’t own them either. you watch them yourself. they’re for sale if you want them.
look, if you consider the movies (you know the whole story) to be themselves war historical movies in the star wars universe(made by the jedi propagandists) instead of the actual events happening before your eyes then there’s no point in further discussing this.
Not sure why I’m wading into this, but…
You can’t really compare the Force/Jedi to any religion present today. They clearly have access to the supernatural; no modern sect can leap 30 feet into the air or shoot lightning.
no modern sect can leap 30 feet into the air or shoot lightning.
I’m pretty sure Pentecostals can do this.
-Tom
But only prior to being slain by the spirit.
Haha, you have funny bones sir. See I can tell because your witless verbal vomit included smilies.
Johan- Yeah, I tried to read the whole thing. But I can’t quite square someone who abhors socialism YET AT THE SAME TIME spends quite some time complaining about free trade producing slave labor. When he went into the racism, I gave up.
Gideon, I don’t know which concept you don’t understand, but the whole of your post was nonsense.
Cool man. Although I gotta say it looks bad for you; I accidently caught the corner of a brief spoiler in another thread and it said something about an armed Alderaan? :twisted:
I read the whole thing, and I think it was well worth it :)
In short, the gg’s solution is social conservatism and nationalism. It’s too bad for him that he wasn’t born in the right time to promulgate the stab-in-the-back myth.
I read the whole thing, and I think it was well worth it :)
In short, the gg’s solution is social conservatism and nationalism. It’s too bad for him that he wasn’t born in the right time to promulgate the stab-in-the-back myth.[/quote]
GG probably won’t get the reference, Anders.
Palpatine incited a rebellion against the Republic. I think that’s clearly treason and illegal.
{forum spacing breaking 3600 x 3600 pixel image of pile of jedi children corpses.}
here’s what your precious empire’s about.
(/extrabags): jedi propaganda! the real star wars story is too much for amerika(/gideongamer) to stand!
anyway: no mention of weapons on alderaan. shift6’s credibility after mentiong this possible theory gleaned from a corner of a spoiler from the internet is on par with anakin’s basketball playing ability right before obi wan bitched at him that he was the chosen one.
anyway: like someone mentioned in another thread: both brilliant and lame moments, often at the same time.
best of the first three, as good as rotj if not better.