You are, for the reasons I’ve already stated. You are repeating a soundbite provided by a guy who was brutally oversimplifying an extremely complex field.
But if you don’t want to accept my own statement which rephrased the statement into a much more accurate form, you can look at pieces like this.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x
Thanks for linking that, you had made the statement in the P&R thread but without links, I always like to read source material. One minor thing I note is that they did discern that female GD subjects were gender-normal during/post-puberty, which aligns with some of what J.K. Rowling said. I can’t comment or form a stance based on any of this because it’s way too new to do so, but it does seem to indicate that she did her homework.
Reading a bit more, my takeaway is that neurology is very much a spectrum for all humans, male/female-wise, endocrinology less so, and morphology being distinct outside of outliers.
The article is light on details, as I am sure a book review might be. It seems to talk more about how men and women aren’t cognitively different when it comes to ability (no argument from me) but since that isn’t the basis of my argument, I don’t really think it applies to this case.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00535-9
Here is something more recent to look over. Sadly, I think only the abstract is posted.
Lego, of there were really fundamental, biological differences in brain structure between the different sexes, then those differences would essentially be sex linked traits… Which would generally mean they would be determined by the sex chromosomes.
What the article you are citing actually says, is that there are certain structural and activity based metrics, where a trans person may exhibit patterns which are more typically seen in a person who expresses the other gender… But you are overstating and oversimplifying it when you say things like, “you would see a woman’s brain”.
Actually, no. Those differences could be linked to the Testosterone wash during development. In fact, that is one of the theories of Transgender men and women revolves around the levels of testosterone during certain stages of development.
Now, my own education is pretty far removed. I finished my last Biopsych class in 2010, and my graduate education was mostly Cognitive Based, but looking over some of the literature, I think some of the more edgy ideas of my mentor might have been true. Dr. Chang was very much a character and probably took his ideas way too far though.
Still… food for thought down below.
Testosterone plays an important role in mammalian brain development. In neural regions with appropriate receptors testosterone, or its metabolites, influences patterns of cell death and survival, neural connectivity and neurochemical characterization. Consequently, testosterone exposure during critical periods of early development produces permanent behavioural changes. In humans, affected behaviours include childhood play behaviour, sexual orientation, core gender identity and other characteristics that show sex differences (i.e. differ on average between males and females). These influences have been demonstrated primarily in individuals who experienced marked prenatal hormone abnormalities and associated ambiguities of genital development (e.g. congenital adrenal hyperplasia). However, there is also evidence that testosterone works within the normal range to make some individuals within each sex more sex-typical than others. The size of testosterone-related influences, and perhaps even their existence, varies from one sex-typed characteristic to another. For instance: prenatal exposure to high levels of testosterone has a substantial influence on sex-typical play behaviour, including sex-typed toy preferences, whereas influences on core gender identify and sexual orientation are less dramatic. In addition: there appears to be little or no influence of prenatal testosterone on mental rotations ability, although mental rotations ability shows a marked sex difference. These findings have implications for basic understanding of the role of testosterone in normative gender development, as well as for the clinical management of individuals with disorders of sex development (formerly called intersex syndromes).
Abstract
Phoenix et al. (1959) reported that treating pregnant guinea pigs with testosterone had enduring effects on the sex-related behavior of their female offspring. Since then, similar enduring effects of early testosterone exposure have been found in other species, including humans, and for other behaviors that show average sex differences. In humans, the affected outcomes include gender identity, sexual orientation, and children’s sex-typical play behavior. The evidence linking early testosterone exposure to sex-typed play is particularly robust, and sex-typed play is also influenced by many other factors, including socialization by parents and peers and self-socialization, based on cognitive understanding of gender. In addition to influencing behavior, testosterone and hormones produced from testosterone affect mammalian brain structure. Studies using human autopsy material have found some sex differences in the human brain similar to those seen in other species, and have reported that some brain sex differences correlate with sexual orientation or gender identity, although the causes of these brain/behavior relationships are unclear. Studies that have imaged the living human brain have found only a small number of sex differences, and these differences are generally small in magnitude. In addition, they have not been linked to robust psychological or behavioral sex differences. Future research might benefit from improved imaging technology, and attention to other brain characteristics. In addition, it might usefully explore how different types of factors, such as early testosterone exposure and parental socialization, work together in the developmental system that produces sex/gender differences in human brain and behavior.
My understanding (and believe me, my understanding is suspect because this is all coming from memory). Is that Sex Chromosomes do trigger the testosterone that alters babies into males and females, but that other things can trigger those same changes. There are some sketchy studies that link the London Bombing with Homosexuality in the 1970s (Stress during pregnancy has been linked to disruptions in testosterone). There is of course studies of XY people that develop as phenotype Female.
In any case, XX and XY aren’t always respected when it comes to development. Food for thought.
The point is, Trangender is not something you wake up with one day. Sexuality and gender are all on a continuum, and people don’t always fall into neat categories, but some of them do fall into categories we would never have expected. And we should respect that like we respect that some people are gay, or asexual or pan sexual, and part of respecting it is believing them. Believing them, when they say they are women or men. Believing them when they say they experience life and a man or woman regardless of what their genitals might say.
While this is theoretically possible, it wouldn’t result in all transgender people demonstrating those traits.
This is true., Which is why it’s silly to say things like “they would have a woman’s brain”. It’s a dramatic oversimplification.
It’s funny that we get a better discussion once we move things out of P&R. That was a brilliant post with fantastic information, and I thank you for it. Still, and I hope it isn’t the case but maybe I’m throwing a bomb into the room, does some of the friction, or maybe most of the friction when we talk about edge cases like J.K. Rowling where by most counts she’s an ally but said some things that were objectionable, and reasonably so, come from when we get to abstract absolutes like language rather than talk about the science?
I guess I would posit that all of the posters that were participating in the P&R thread are generally trans-positive, probably to an extent that might not hit 100%, but is way above 50, or even 80. My personal guess would be 90+, but where we clash is over a couple of things. One being, that there still has to be an honest recognition of women, and being a woman. I know it should cut both ways as there are trans men as well, but for clarity I’d like to stay there. Rowling’s points seemed to be much more around not obliviating the shared experience of growing up a woman from birth. There’s a lot of meat on that bone. She also commented that some really permissive ideas coming out of the UK around a man that dresses as a man, presents as a man, is pre-everything would by dint of having a declaration of being transgender have access to all the usual safe spaces that are reserved for women.
For an example, I would be really confident in saying that not a single poster in that thread has a problem with referring to a trans woman as a woman, or using her new name if she chose to change it, or a number of other things. Where it gets contentious, and this is entirely me so I’ll take all the criticism singularly going forward, is saying that I can’t recognize that there is a difference between someone who grew up as a female in our culture. Trans people have an equally valid and equally complex life story, but the two can exist side by side, and they are different stories. Again, that’s just me. The trans people I know, I had and have no problem switching pronouns and names, but there seems to be an idea that I can no longer refer to something as inherent as chromosomes without offending.
I’m going to hit Reply on this, and I’m a bit terrified at what may come.
I don’t think it’s overly dramatic. I think it’s a recognitation that Transwomen are born women. They don’t sudden change and become women after surgery. They have minds and brains that tell them that they are women, despite being born with a penis.
Radio and podcast host, Jesse Thorn comes to mind. His 5 year indicated they were gender nonconforming.
I have a friend that might be going through this, but since I haven’t seen him since covid started, I haven’t really thought to ask.
Anyway, just like sexuality being on a continuum doesn’t mean that people can’t be gay. Just because gender can be on a continuum doesn’t mean that transgender women can’t have fully realized female brains.
Heck, I am under the impression that transgender women/men might be more common that people that don’t conform to any gender.
I think people should be most respectful to your question.
I am sure the experience are different for the two groups, but what about people that start the process early, or recognize themselves as Transgender Women at age 5, 6, 7, 8 or so. Wouldn’t their experience be almost the same as CIS Women?
The argument against TERFs is that there is a belief that Transgender Women are trying to replace CIS Women.
To your point about early-recognizers, I agree. To your final point though, one thing that surprised me from the P&R thread was the idea that there is an actual TERF community or movement. I’m not saying there isn’t, lord knows that the internet knows no limit on depths. However TERF seems to get thrown around like RINO or Blue-Dog Democrat as a smear rather than an accurate designation. For instance, if JK Rowling is a TERF by the definition of what you are saying TERFs are, I’d have to see some further proof.
I can only post this. Mostly because it’s funny, not as an actual reply. It’s late, and I have parental duties to attend.
But that’s not what you were talking about.
You were suggesting that if you looked at a trans woman’s brain under an MRI, that it would have clear physiological indicators that is was “a woman’s brain”.
That’s not true, for a number of reasons. It’s an overstatement and oversimplification, based on some isolated studies which have indicated certain similarities on the activities and structures seen in cis and trans women.
Those studies did not suggest that there was a holistic “gendered brain” that could be identified through physiological analysis that transcended cis and trans women. That was an overstatement, carried by some in the media.
Even in the Cleveland clinic article you cited, it only went so far as to suggest:
For example, a person who is born with a penis but ends up identifying as a female often actually has some of the structural characteristics of a “female” brain.
That is, there are SOME characteristics that are typically found in the brains of cis females, that are sometimes (but not always) expressed in the brains of trans women.
While you mean well here, your overstatement could have negative unintended consequences for a number of reasons. First, it suggests that those qualities are what makes a brain female, which is not going to be the case for many people (including both cis and trans womenl). Second, it kind of leans into some elements of pseudoscience, suggesting that there are measurable differences in gendered brain structures, which can then be used to justify sexism.
I’m at a loss as to how that applied.
It doesn’t. It’s just funny.
I thought I said that in my reply.
That, I can get behind. And you’re right, I glossed over that bit before clicking on the video.
After looking into this more, after seeing the term, I noticed shared elements with other feminist groups that predated trans people being commonly discussed in society. For some, a trans woman (especially one who only transitioned later in life) is not like them. They did not go through their shared, female, experiences living in a patriarchal society.
I suspect that in some cases, this doesn’t necessarily mean that they are anti trans women, but merely that they are unwilling to accept the negation of that component of own feminity as necessary.
Also, I think that some of these feminists have experienced things that cause then to have a deep distrust, or even hatred, of men, and some of that ends up being expressed towards trans women who they see as containing some of that “maleness”. That may be hurtful, but it may also be a result of hurt they themselves had gone through, which is sadly a common occurrence with people getting hurt by others.
The general emphasis of lots of feminism for quite some time has been to try to break down differences between genders. One of the strangest things about the trans movement is that it’s de facto pushing in the opposite direction, sharply defining differences in what “man” and “woman” are. It’s honestly something I’d like to see more pushback against, I don’t think rigid gender roles are actually good for anyone including trans folks.
I’m going to have to disagree with this idea. I know it does sound great to say there are no differences between men and women, but we could end up like France and racism. The government of France strongly argues that there are is no such thing as race, so fails to track the racism that is happening in that country (which is a lot). I honestly fear that the Far Right would love to take a similar approach to women in this country.
Likewise, when it comes to gender, there are clear differences and we see a lot of the cracks that are occurring in our society. One of the scariest things currently going on right now is how many women have left the labor market.
Women are leaving their jobs for a variety of reasons, but chief along them is a lack of childcare (a low-paid position that mostly employs women (would that be considered Irony?)). Even in households with 2 employed partners, it is often the women that reduce their hours or leave their position to work. Gender roles aren’t something that needs to be rigid, but it seems to be something that many Americans turn to time and time again, regardless of how open-minded and progressive we become.
It would be great to say that men and women are equal and the same, but until society changes so that women are actually valued equally and the same, we should be mindful that there are differences, and that currently, women are bearing the brunt of them.
Or as James Acaster says “You can’t treat everyone the same if don’t have equality yet” (start at 1 Minute 19 Seconds or so).
I watched the show and didn’t find it too funny. It really is odd that Dave is going to toe-to-toe with the transgender community. They are billing the show as “setting the record straight,” but it’s more like an axe to grind. I mean, I love some Dave Chappelle when he’s making jokes about Micheal Jackson’s desire for little boys or Bill Crosby being a rapist. But transgender? And then such weak-ass jokes. I guess it was the last Netflix special and he didn’t have to make it good he just had to make one.