The Fall of Harvey Weinstein

Personally, I don’t really have any fear that he would do something to molest a child… I’m not sure why you would think that. I mean, there’s literally no suggestion that he did anything like that.

But, even putting that aside… since you apparently have such beliefs… how long would it take for you to be ok with it? Because I’m thinking that the answer is “infinity time”.

I never said she was a minor. Just you know, someone you care whom you want to introduce to this guy who might help her career. Since you think he’s perfectly fine now, if you have a young woman who trusts you and your judgment and she wants to be a comedian, I am sure you have no concerns about sending her into a room with this guy.

I honestly don’t think he’d do anything at this point.

But since you clearly do, how long until you don’t?

I am not sure what the number is, but it’s not 9 months. It would help if he came off less concerned about his career and getting on stage and more concerned about, pretty much anything else. It’s too soon, and no, it’s not arbitrary. How many years did he commit sexual violence against others?

We’ve established how I’m over-eager to forgive him and I would venture to say that you skew in the opposite direction. (It’s not me vs you of course but I think we represent the two “sides” in this debate.) That said…

I don’t think it’s fair to claim that he was talking about himself in his statement with the implication that he’s being egotistical or self-serving. I take it at face value. This is a man who’s been processing his shameful acts and sharing how he justified them and misunderstood or didn’t properly comprehend the gravity of his professional and moral responsibilities. Throughout his statement, there is language which clearly expresses contrition, remorse, a growing understanding about the severity of what he did, and acknowledgement of the harm he’s done to his victims.

I read all of that as coming from a place of trying to articulate something helpful for the #metoo movement because even though he’s the enemy, he’s also an ally. That might sound crazy or infuriating but human beings are complex. I’ve felt it in my job as a professor, trying to keep up with 18 year-olds as the generation gap widens and I start to feel like an enemy in a war I’m trying to win. I am not racist but I am a little bit racist. I am not sexist but I am a little bit sexist. It’s the same debate that’s going on in the McCain discussion… human beings defy easy classification into Good vs Bad. And this circles back around to me wanting to hear what he has to say on the subject because that statement was a beginning and I’d like to hear more.

Louis will face fierce, unwavering opposition from a certain section of the public for the rest of his life. And that’s as it should be. Many of them will be people who didn’t know him or his work prior to the allegations. Their size and outrage is yet to be determined. But like Armando on McCain, forgiveness or compassion are simply not ever going to enter into it. Some folks live firmly in the Hell Yes or Fuck No margins but after a certain point that starts to come off as repetitive and simplistic. I think we should try to navigate the more difficult and complicated middle ground. Not for Louis but for everyone else.

If you can’t give a date, then yeah, it’s arbitrary. Because no matter how long he waits, you’re just gonna say it’s too soon. There’s no actual FUNCTION that time is serving.

If the purpose is reflection, then that’s something you can absolutely do in 9 months. There was’t any continued discussion going on about CK until he came back… there was nothing more to listen to.

You think it’s too soon… but you aren’t saying what actually has to happen for that to not be the case. So he can’t actually satisfy you.

Do you or do you not agree there is something wrong with a guy who wants to force women to watch him masturbate?

As apologies go, I think it’s just fine. Of course, the fact that he’s apologizing for whipping his dick out and masturbating… I’m not sure any kind of apology would be enough. It’s a bit like apologizing for murdering your pet and then eating it or apologizing for burglarizing your house.

However, I still think it’s absolutely crazy that these women didn’t immediately contact the police and get him done for indecent exposure or shop him to his management agency or… do practically any number of other things except moan about it on Twitter.

This entire situation with Louis C.K. is kind of bizarre…

We are days into the latest phase of this conversation, Nesrie. Are you doing some kind of Groundhog Day thing where you reset each morning?

Hey this is me. Fuck Louis CK.


Even these two examples. The first one, yeah, unforgivable. The second one, I can easily imagine forgiving someone for that.

It’s not arbitrary. It’s subjective. This is an area without codified, bright-line rules on punishment and contrition. It’s all opinions, filtered through each person’s experiences and concerns. Why would you expect others to come up with the same number you did? Or to have calculated one at all?

Yes! Totally fuck Louis CK. And I also agree completely with Nesrie. I am on her side. All these things can be true at the same time!

But you’re trying to change the subject now.
Everyone knows its wrong.

But you’re saying that he needs to wait longer… but you have no idea how long, and you’re not suggesting that he actually do anything concrete. If you’re going to be upset no matter how long he waits, then there’s no rational reason for him to try and appease you, because he can’t.

No, it’d be subjective if you could say, “This is how long I think it should take.”

What makes it arbitrary is that there is no amount of time that folks are able to give, even as a matter of subjective opinion. It’s just “more”.

He could never satisfy such a requirement.

It’s not changing the subject. I think there is something wrong with this guy, so for you to keep asking me how long he has to be out of the public, I am going to say to you how long does it take to fix someone who is broken like that. These are not unrelated. He cannot fix himself. There is something seriously wrong with someone who behaves like this. It’s not a no biggy problem.

You need to answer the whole posts.

I don’t think how crazy you are should directly correlate to whether or not you should be in the public eye. Tom Cruise is arguably crazy for being a Scientologist but it doesn’t directly affect his body of work.

Louis C.K. is a stand up/shock comedian. I don’t think his antics necessarily affect his body of work either. It’s an interesting question though. If Louis C.K. were a childrens TV presenter…
… hmm I might well have issues with him returning to the public eye in that instance - although I’d have difficulty in articulating why.

Oof! I agree with you, drax, but replace the word ‘antics’, quick! Not cutting it! LOL

Also, that’s why the whole janitor comparison from upthread, or any comparison to a traditional workplace, just doesn’t work.

My problem is not just the amount of time - yes, 9 months is too short, and no, I don’t know how much longer would be good - but simply the amount of time is irrelevant here.

My problem is in how he chose to come back.

The way he came back - a surprise visit, no warning, no way for customers to choose whether their money is going to him - is fucking shitty.

What Louie did to people in the audience who don’t like him is force those club-goers to have to make a decision they didn’t think they’d have to make. They have to decide to end their night early or spend more money going somewhere else they didn’t plan to go, or just stick it out and hope there’s someone else on after him.

What Louie did here is very similar to what he did to those women he attacked years ago. Sure the severity is different and I’m not going to equivocate sexual assault with an unwanted concert performance, but they still effectively result in something similar - he put people in an uncomfortable position, something they didn’t want, and forced those people to make a decision they didn’t ever intend to have to make in the first place to extricate themselves from that situation, something they shouldn’t have needed to do either.

Fuck whether he atoned for his sins, fuck whether his apology was enough, fuck whether his material was good. He literally forced himself onto an unsuspecting audience and probably made many of their days crappier.

And Louie did this because he knows he still has the power and influence to do it. Because he knows that society doesn’t really give a shit about the victims of sexual assault, and he knows the right club owners who let him do it to an unsuspecting audience.

I don’t know that Tom Cruise has committed sexual violence against anyone.

Hell none of you guys had any risk being in a room with him in the first place, even when he was out preying. Why would you feel risk now? I am not worried for you guys, I am worried for his targets. There’s zero reason to believe he can control himself. He couldn’t do it before. And when he came back, again, he took choice away and didn’t think twice about it. He has not changed.