WoW, The powerlevelling paradise

It’s the same with powerlevelling. Peoples get powerlevelled by high-level friends to do the instances instead of building parties with the proper level range.

Warrior: “yo shaman, get some windfury action in here”
Shaman: “huh?”
Warrior: “windfury totems man, drop that shit”
Shaman: “hehe dont have that totem”
Warrior: “you got agility?”
Shaman: “thats a totem?”
Warrior: “Fuck man you at least got the strength totem right?”
Shaman: “yeah”
Warrior: “pulling”
Priest: “afk cat needs food”
Warrior: "totems plz
…
Warrior: “level 1 wtf”
Shaman: “hehe i dont waste money on that shit dude”
Warrior: “watch the heals”
Rogue: “add”
Warrior: “let me get aggro”
Rogue: “lol crit for 1500 ez fucker”
Warrior: “YO ROGUE LET ME BUILD AGGRO MAN”
Rogue calls out for healing!
Your share of the loot is 31 copper.
Shaman receives loot: [Rusty Blunderbuss]
Rogue has died.
Warrior: “heal”
Your share of the loot is 37 copper.
Warrior: “heal”
Warrior calls out for healing!
Your share of the loot is 15 copper.
Warrior has died.
Your share of the loot is 42 copper.
Shaman receives loot: [Mageweave]
Priest says: “back”
Shaman says: “man u guys suck”
fin

Do I run guildmates through instances? Yes, yes I do.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I never felt left out (or that I was leaving others out) in CoH. In WoW I think we’d have lost people in our guild already because of disparate levels if it weren’t for the fact that most of us are unconcerned with levelling so will switch over to alts to play with people farther back. But it’d sure be nice to have a sidekick system in place so that we could play with people regardless.

I suppose it could be tougher in this type of game than CoH… how do you deal with loot, for instance? Still, while I think WoW has moved the genre forward in many ways, I’m disappointed none of the post CoH games have shown up with sidekicking type elements. It wouldn’t help for the truly hardcore who are in the game only to be level 60 to raid things (which is fine, really), but for the median players it would work wonders. I’d also love to see the exemplar mechanism, so the folks that are above me can be delevelled back down to me and we can go through instances and have them still be challenging, rather than farming expeditions.

Sidekicking and exemplaring can work well in City of Heroes because the ability set in the game is designed to scale directly with level. The one place where things didn’t correctly scale with level was with enhancements; someone sidekicked from 15 to 30 simply wasn’t anything as powerful as someone who was already at 30 and had made the full upgrade from a handful of trainer slots to gobs and gobs of single-origin enhancements. I imagine the same exact thing happens with exemplaring down (assuming the enhancements and enhancement slots aren’t reduced to what you could have had at that level).

I think exemplaring could be made to work in WoW, though - leave the gear as-is except for AC, scale the stats to the correct values for that level, and shift down any abilities the player might have to the lowest available rank (without however taking away any). This would let you exemplar without having to screw with your item bars or equipment. Your gear would obviously be overpowered but that should be the nature of an exemplar in the first place.

I think WoW scales better with level for sidekicking than CoH. You have spell ranks (pick the rank most appropriate for the sidekicked level, adjust, etc). The normal green equipment scales incredibly easily, because of the obviously algorithmic manner it’s generated. CoH sidekicking was tough not only because of the three tiers of enhancements, but because you got a new power every other level. This would happen at low levels in WoW I suppose, but generally you have a huge swath of your abilities already by level 15-20 (especially casters, melee still have their base abilities but don’t have access to all the specialties… however most of those specialties are special situation type things after level 15-20 or so anyway).

Having done my share of powerlevelling and psuedo-twinking in EQ (dropped $40 on ebay gold and got some uber equipment) I marvel at WoW’s ability to make me not care. Perhaps it’s me that’s changed, perhaps not. But EQ was all about what is the most efficient way to get from 15 to 18 or 21 to 24. I remember spending 3 levels at a time in the same areas, often fighting the exact same spawn because it was the right thing to do.

Obviously, the questing aspect of WoW is a huge help, but I also feel that no matter what level you are (up to 20 where I am at right now) you have a huge amount of options to accomplish the same goals. Sick of fighting watchers in Westfall? Take the delivery quest to Lakeshire and start anew. Then you can work on several different quests on your way to Darkshire and can head back to Westfall for upper level defias whenever you want…

Powerlevelling can and always will happen, but that I’m content wandering around, seeing new places and appreciating the art design, is a credit that WoW has created something that for many can diminish that age old “need” to do it right and best and most efficient the first time.

The downside to it is it plays to a wider crowd, enhances the ability to solo, and in my experience grouping is a lot more difficult to come by and less rewarding. It’s astonishing how often I see 3 different solos or 2-man groups in the same area, running around killing the same mobs, and running away from the same mobs when shit gets too hard. I’ve had /tells and invites ignored. There seems to be some kind of aversion to working together to make everyone’s life easier. It was easy to find someone to team up with up to level 10 or so, but since then it’s been almost nonexistant. And when you do find 1 or 2 to group with, they attack your sheep when you have aggro and 40hp.

There’s any number of reasons to have groups with widely disparate level ranges… such groups have zero impact on what you do, unless its some sort of e-penis measuring contest. It’s also kind of the point of being in the same guild - you know, doing stuff together, helping each other out?

I am the third highest level in my guild at 51. The next highest are 10-15 levels below me. It is a statistical certainty in an MMO that of any random 4 people you choose to group with, 2 or more will suck. A lot. So I don’t do it a lot. I do group with my guildmates a lot because they also know this rule. And that whole thing about us being friends.

We have all known each other for five years or more, having met in UO & EQ. The vast majority of us have met face-to-face, having made the time to fly to each others’ hometowns for that express purpose. As for me… I, specifically, have a lot of very bad shit going on in my life. Grouping with my friends in WoW is a way for me to take my mind off that stuff for a few hours each day.

In short, Mr. HRose - and I really don’t feel like being polite today, the aforementioned shit getting to me rather more than usual and all - eat a bag of shut the fuck up.

I find groups all the time for the instances and I always see people looking for others of the same level to do instances. Hell, I have received TWO tells from complete strangers (as a 42 warrior) asking for me to join them in Scarlet Monastery. I don’t know what’s wrong with Mannoroth, but Kilrogg is awesome. Great people on that server.

I do not understand why people object to both twinking and powerleveling. For example I had been playing EQ on and off for 3 years. I never got a character past level 30 in all that time. So I am playing a necro and am actually just breaching the level 30 mark. I am grouping with another necro who is level 33. He asks me where some well know place is (I forget what it was specifcally).

I asked, “How can you be level 33 and not know where X is?” He answers, he has only been playing EQ for 2 days. I ask, if he bought his character from ebay. He says, no, but his friends powerlevled him and gave him a bunch of good gear. Do I care? No. Does it harm me? No. Should anyone care? No, with one exception.

That exeption is that if you group with an idiot who doesn’t know how to play his class or play in groups, that can be really bad. The corrolary though, is that if a seasoned player does start a new character, if he does want to twink OR PL, it is in the intrestests of his friends and guild to PL him as quickly possible because presumably he wont be one of those idiots you end up with in random groups.

As a player who would like to be PL, its because I have done all that content before. How many times do I want to go through the westfall quest series? I have done it 3 times with 3 characters. I really do not want to do it again. Developers who are against the PL and Twinking idea need to get it through thier head that players do not want to experience the same exact content over and over and over.

EQ2 made a big mistake in this respect and these artifical mechnaics make no sense and take a lot away from the game. Such that if I see someone fighting a mob not in my group and they need help, I can not heal them or toss a fireball at the mob they are fighting to help them out. I really want to try this game, but asside from waiting till i get sick of WoW, I am waiting for them to pull thier heads out from thier ass and fix these game mechanics. So far, Id be more likely to go back to CoH before trying EQ2.

I have not really a big problem with this because I build my group “by hand”, without using the channels. I do for example a /who druid 41-47 and ask to each if he wants to join. So the “pool” is right what the server has to offer at that moment.

Imho, those stones you speak about will be worthless. Worthless on the same level the LFG channel they built. Or they work for the whole server (like a channel again server wide, or a goddamn LFG system server wide like DAoC), or it’s again fluff that won’t be used. Devs work and time wasted.

I don’t sit and wait at Uldaman to get a group. Instead I would gladly join to do Razorfen Downs if I receive a message, but how can I know that if I’m waiting at the Uldaman stone or if I’m doing other quests because i was bored of waiting?

What I hope is to be able to go to the stone, flag myself and then wander off. That may work.[/quote]

There’s your problem right there. Some random guy asks me to go to Uldaman? Ummmm no way in hell… pick-up groups suck. A lot. And I have had nothing but poor experiences with groups assembled in the manner you indicate. I would suggest… get into a guild, form a regular play group of some kind. I have no problem finding groups to do things with probably because I have a large pool of like minded players to choose from i.e. a Guild.

I’ve done both pick up and guild groups. Alot of people, as mentioned previously, do suck in pick up groups. I basicaly just take the opportunity to grab the names of the good ones and invite them next time I’m forming a group.

As for the power leveling thing…

I’m 57, beyond a warlock of the same level, the rest of my guild is 45 or under. Do I take them through instances? Yes. I would rather go through Zul’farrak or the lower parts of Maraudon a couple dozen times with guild than people I don’t know.

And it’s not exactly all that easy…maybe if I was a different class, but the most I’m giving is insane dps and a shitty offtank (rogue). We just do it for the fun, and to let them see instances a bit earlier than what they might have done it at. I hardly see that as game breaking or imposing on someone else’s gameplay.

After all, they’re taking a significant xp hit. That balances out the rest, and some of the uber blue drops in the place they aren’t going to be able to use yet anyway. So I don’t see how it’s detrimental to the game or other players.

I rarely have a problem getting a level approriate group, just gotta hit up the main cities during prime time. The problems I do get is just because alot of people don’t wanna take rogues along :p But ah well, I can live with that.

But this is the whole point. Maybe it’s hard to understand because I always write ASIDE the personal experience because I’m interested in the design of the game and studying it.

The point of my message is: I don’t believe that this design does something good to the game. I guess you agree? The fact that powerlevelling is part of every MMORPG for sure doesn’t justify it as good design.

I just don’t understand this point, or is the entire aim of WoW to reach level x at which point you “win”?

The point here is again aside myself. If I observe the larger chunk of the playerbase play in the “wrong” way, it means that maybe there are flaws in how the design is built. Or maybe it can still improve.

On the other side the sense of achievement, that IS an important part of the game, no matter how you play, is disrupted because powerlevelling is so largely common. Let’s say you get wiped three, four times at the last encounter in Uldaman. At that point you probably will accept that message you see on the general chat:
LF1M Uldaman boss, we have a level 55 priest.

And once you accept that the game has lost something good. Already.

I don’t believe you’re qualified to judge what’s good for the game. Or for other people playing the game aside from yourself. So some people like to zip through instance content without having to put in any effort. So what? Does this do the game a disservice? Maybe, if you believe there’s some pure, objective standard that represents how the game is supposed to be played. But there’s not.

I, personally, don’t enjoy having a person (or people) much higher than an instance “helping”. It removes the fun for me, because I don’t get to test my skills in playing the game. However, for others, it’s fun because it’s somewhere they can go and get good experience and maybe some nice loot without too much trouble. Do I want to play that way? No. Do I care if others play that way? Only if they’re my peer group.

Your point seems to be that the availability of the ability to do this means that it’s reducing the potential group of people that others, who don’t want to play the same way, might group with. But, in fact, the experience of grouping with people who want to play a different way but can’t is no more rewarding than grouping with people who do play a different way. If you’re the type person who likes a challenge, it’s not fun to do an instance with someone who’s always whining because they might die, or this portion is hard, or they have to take all this time and planning and make sure everyone is at full mana and health before the next fight. This wouldn’t change even if they were forced to do the instance by preventing them running through it with others. Why force people to be unhappy and, ultimately, share that unhappiness?

On the other side the sense of achievement, that IS an important part of the game, no matter how you play, is disrupted because powerlevelling is so largely common.

Again, silly self-important assertions are not fact. I know many people who don’t give a damn about achievement. They log on to interact with friends, or to roleplay, or to just simply have something to do. In the same way that many people here play console games to beat them, and others play them to entertain themselves and pass the time. Achievement is no more a universal goal than wealth, power, love, or even happiness. Quit projecting your feelings onto the populace at large and then treating it as if it is some objective truth.

This attitude is a significant part of the larger problem.

Fact is, -everyone- sucks at something in the game. -No one- is a complete know-everything expert. I’ve been playing these games for years, I’ve certainly mastered the basic skills, but that doesn’t mean anything. There is still much I do not know, and much that I have to learn, even aside from simply playing a new game with some new quirks to figure out.

I will gladly, gladly take any random 4 people into a dungeon with me. Even if they are all rank beginners. Because it does not matter how much one knows, what matters is what one is capable of learning.

Everyone you have ever met, liked, and loved, was at one point, a “random guy.” To completely reject the possibilities to meet and embrace new people is contrary to the entire point of the MMOG genre, which is… to play with lots of different people.

Most of them suck. So what? It’s not all that difficult to identify and then avoid them. Worst case scenario, some numbskull kills everyone. So what? Res, write down the names of the offending parties, and stone out. What have you lost? A few minutes of your life.

The potential for gain is far greater. Some of the best players I’ve grouped with have spoken English as a second language, barely, went into an instance for the first time ever, and had no idea what role their class was to play.

Conversely, nearly all of the worst players I’ve grouped with have been a bunch of closed-minded dumbshits who roll into a group of strangers and expect them all to play “their” way, because that’s what’s always worked for them and their gang of seven buddies that they went to high school with. (And I use the term “worked” loosely.)

Surprise! Lots of people on the Internet have poor social skills. This is an entirely separate failing than that of simple ignorance on how to play the game, with other people, appropriately. The latter is easily correctable within ten minutes, if the former isn’t very egregious.

No, the point is way more simple: will your game offer a challenge? No, World of Warcraft doesn’t because you can bypass it.

My simple opinion is that a level cap would make the run through the instances more fun and appealing exactly because they should have a difficulty that you cannot bypass.

Do I want to play that way? No. Do I care if others play that way? Only if they’re my peer group.

Again my point of view isn’t yours or mine. It’s about considering the design and see if it’s the best possible or if it has a flaw.

If capping the instances produces more fun for everyone it should be implemented. If it doesn’t it shouldn’t.

I believe it should.

What?

^ What Mousey said.

Yes, H, it’s people who say there is a ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ way to play these games that make things like EQ shudder

If capping the instances produces more fun for everyone it should be implemented. If it doesn’t it shouldn’t. I believe it should.

Because you BELIEVE it is more fun for everyone to stop people helping friends and to not do an instance quickly.

Clearly you are WRONG, as I find it fun to do instances quickly some times, and I find it fun to help my lower guildmates. And so do a LOT of other people I know

Since you are wrong, will yous shush now and just let us have our fun!?

This attitude is a significant part of the larger problem.

Fact is, -everyone- sucks at something in the game. -No one- is a complete know-everything expert. I’ve been playing these games for years, I’ve certainly mastered the basic skills, but that doesn’t mean anything. There is still much I do not know, and much that I have to learn, even aside from simply playing a new game with some new quirks to figure out.

I will gladly, gladly take any random 4 people into a dungeon with me. Even if they are all rank beginners. Because it does not matter how much one knows, what matters is what one is capable of learning.

Everyone you have ever met, liked, and loved, was at one point, a “random guy.” To completely reject the possibilities to meet and embrace new people is contrary to the entire point of the MMOG genre, which is… to play with lots of different people.

Most of them suck. So what? It’s not all that difficult to identify and then avoid them. Worst case scenario, some numbskull kills everyone. So what? Res, write down the names of the offending parties, and stone out. What have you lost? A few minutes of your life.

The potential for gain is far greater. Some of the best players I’ve grouped with have spoken English as a second language, barely, went into an instance for the first time ever, and had no idea what role their class was to play.

Conversely, nearly all of the worst players I’ve grouped with have been a bunch of closed-minded dumbshits who roll into a group of strangers and expect them all to play “their” way, because that’s what’s always worked for them and their gang of seven buddies that they went to high school with. (And I use the term “worked” loosely.)

Surprise! Lots of people on the Internet have poor social skills. This is an entirely separate failing than that of simple ignorance on how to play the game, with other people, appropriately. The latter is easily correctable within ten minutes, if the former isn’t very egregious.[/quote]

Well Jafd the big problem here is that I’m not you… I don’t like to spend time teaching people how to play the game, I don’t like spending my playing time trying to find out if people are good to play with or not… I already have people who I like to play with. To put it simply I am not looking for the things that you apparantly are… so I’m close minded? I don’t try to force anyone to play my way I just very rarely group with people I don’t know. I can have a perfectly fun and great MMO experience without grouping with random people, if you are unable to do that then that’s your thing. What I was suggesting is that anyone who is having problems with grouping (either because of time or experience) find themselves a guild, i.e. a group of people who have similar playing styles.

Oh and to point out something else nowhere did I say that people who speak english as a second language or have poor communication skills are the people I am trying to avoid… in fact the players I’m trying to avoid the most are the powergamers, the bossy players, and the jerks. In fact I might venture a guess that anyone who feels the need to “correct” someone’s playing style is exactly the person I’m trying to avoid.

So let me roleplay the wannabe designer and tell me if this solution wouldn’t work:

You will be able to powerlevel/group with wide level range gap only if you beat the instance at least once. Restrictions apply only if you still haven’t beaten it once with a party of a proper level.

As a wannabe designer I’m stupid to impose my sense of fun. But I believe that corrections to the system may still make the game more fun for everyone. If this isn’t fun for everyone I “failed” and I’m obviously wrong.

So let me roleplay the wannabe designer and tell me if this solution wouldn’t work:

Here’s the issue, and it’s an issue with a lot of game designers, and wannabe designers: You have a solution for a non-existent problem. Without sitting down and really anlyasing what is and isn’t a problem you’re just changing stuff for the sake of it because you don’t like it.

Too often designers fix something that isn’t actually causing problems. Or fix something to make it work right when in fact it was more fun when it worked wrong.

Once you have proven a problem exists (outside of your perception of what is or isn’t fun for -other people-), then we can talk about solutions.

However, until 90% of your audience agrees there is a problem, the problem doesn’t exist and shouldn’t be ‘fixed’.

That’s a brilliant idea. Let’s combine it with another idea and see what we get:

Good idea! I’m a wannabe designer. And my criteria for considering something a problem is that 90% of the world is getting justifiably annoyed about it. Looking at this thread, it seems like the number of people who think it’s a problem is…wait for it…

Seven percent.

Hmm…I guess there’s no problem after all. Time to get back to fixing the DB back-end…