So, with all due respect, it sounds like you’re a middling-to-low-information partisan tribal warrior, with a media diet heavy on Fox News, and pretensions towards what you think of as “libertarianism”. Props at least for not including the usual appeals to nativism and xenophobia, so you’ve got that going for you. Evil adjacent, I suppose. :)
-Tom
So dithadder’s explanation of his support for Trump illustrates what I feel has gone wrong in America: it’s no longer just disagreements about priorities/values but also disagreements about facts/reality that split voters in America.
To illustrate, one part of dithadder’s explanation centers on his focus on “low taxes”, which he clearly prioritizes at a very high level and which I consider secondary to funding the necessary needs of government… That’s an example of what I consider the “old political divide” prior to the Limbaugh/Gingrich/Breitbart/Trump era.
However, dithadder also illustrates the factual divide that has arisen after decades of Limbaugh/Fox/Breitbart et. al.: his casual assumption that Trump is a “real person” despite massive evidence of Trump being a facade and his declaration that Biden has “dementia” despite a complete lack of evidence (and disregarding the evidence of potential motor issues by Trump) shows that dithadder perceives a very different reality from actual reality.
It would be one problem if the main divide in this country were values and priorities. But adding to that is the reality dysfunction and that’s where I think the normal levers of democratic compromise are malfunctioning.
So if someones opinion is terrifying is not the original post terrifying also
I don’t take the original post literally. I’m not terrified by the tone of dithadder’s comment, I’m terrified by the sheer ignorance / misinformation on display.
The problem is they were sold a bill of goods that was nothing more than a lie, an illusion.
Just like with coal miners. There is very real problems with manufacturing jobs, but the biggest one is automation. The US produces more manufacturing output than ever, but jobs decline. It’s not that the US doesn’t produce, it is just that we need far fewer humans to do it.
So when coal miners rejected a candidate who had economic plans to help reshape and retrain communities that have been hollowed out in the rust belt, they cut off their nose to spite their face. They heard a candidate tell them the comforting lie, that he will bring their jobs back, over the uncomfortable truth, those jobs are gone forever. There is no force that can bring them back, because there is no reason for the companies to bring them back. One man can do the work of 20 from the 60’s
With autos it is more complicated, sure. There is a lot of moving parts up and down the supply chain. But the fact is the non government force that helped the common worker most, the auto unions, is one that has been undermined by GOP policy and governance. Which isn’t to say there weren’t issues with the auto unions, but they were a necessary counterbalance to push the interests of the workers.
Also I have a lot of personal animus towards Detroit in general, and Ford most recently, for going all in on the SUV and truck markets, and abandoning the sedan and smaller vehicle segments. I know the why, they are individually more profitable, but they deserve their fate. Market trends shift and change over time, and the next time gas prices go up they will suffer.
And they deserve to.
I think that framing this discussion in terms of “evil” is not helpful, btw.
I think it’s pretty clear that Trump supporters at this point lack both the core factual competency / critical thinking skills, and also the moral responsibility to have any persuasive value to sway the votes of reasonable citizens.
We just need to vote Trump out, vote Trump-adjacent politicians out, vote Trump’s entire party out, curtail the institutional skew factors that unfairly favor this group of voters, protect voting rights, and proceed forward with policies and reforms based on facts, competence and responsibility. There’s no need to call Trump supporters “evil” but there’s also no need to give their views any persuasive weight. They’ve shown they are not voices to be respected.
This isn’t actually saying anything, you realize that, right?
I mean, on one hand you are saying you don’t like class conflict… While you are actively engaged in class conflict.
And… Apparently you don’t like paying taxes. Cool, cool.
Let’s break this down point by point.
Ok, he “cut taxes”. Did he cut YOUR taxes? By how much? And how did he pay for that? Because he totally exploded the deficit, and virtually all of that money went to people who i guarantee are orders of magnitude richer than you.
And what “foreign disentanglement” are you talking about? Abandoning our international allies, like the kurds? Did you receive that as good? If not, what, specifically, are you talking about?
And… Dementia? Do you believe that how biden is somehow LESS mentally capable than Donald Trump? Do you ever actually watch Donald Trump speak? Or walk? Or hell, simply stand up?
I’m being serious here, do you look at Trump, and believe that her is a mentally competent individual? He constantly slurs his words. Hee is seemingly incapable of even reading a prepared speech from a teleprompter without mispronouncing common words.
What exactly is “real” about Donald Trump? He lies constantly. He’s a reality tv character. He’s been handed everything on a silver platter, for his entire life. He’s never had to sacrifice anything, ever. Seriously, what is “real” about him?
I mean, you are regurgitating things that the far right says in their propaganda, but do you believe them? Does it matter your own actual perception of the world? Does it make sense to you?
If taken in isolation. But we know jpinard, he’s a long time poster. You can hear him talk to Tom in this podcast. He gets frustrated with injustice and seeing his country’s values going the way they are right now, but he’s a gentle soul who doesn’t actually wish anyone harm.
Why would u not take both literally. I know neither poster so i could believe either way.
Because I know the poster in one case and can recognize hyperbole, and because (as I said already) what terrifies me about the other poster is the profound ignorance and misinformation on display, not the tone.
Put Trump and his supporters into camps! /s
But this… Isn’t true.
I mean, let’s just put aside the fact that NAFTA was good, and the new USMTF treaty is virtually identical.
Let’s look at the actual stuff happening in the auto industry:
Now, there’s a whole lot of stuff in that article showing how Trump has not been the auto industry at all. He claims credit for factories which were built before he took office… And ignores the fact that his trade wars have actually resulted in a lot of jobs in the auto industry.
But let’s look at a graph, because pictures are easy.
What does that look like to you?
Because what it shows is that the great recession brought on by the GOP’s deregulation of key elements of the financial system destroyed a ton of jobs in that industry.
And then, during Obama’s administration, they built them back at a steady rate every year. Hell, without the actions of Obama’s administration, GM would have collapsed. And the GOP hated that move… Despite the fact that it ended up making the government money.
And under Trump, that rate of improvement did not increase. If i removed the x axis from that chart, you would not be able to tell where Trump took over.
But now, in the last year, Trump destroyed the job market again.
Doesnt matter if it isnt true. I was just saying what people i work with believe. You can throw statistics out all day. But these guys that have seen the union members dwindle dont care. When this is your life and home that people are scared of losing they will cling to anything. When jobs are going out of the country and your own union is being indicted for corruption by the feds you will believe anyone that tells u they will fix it even if it is a lie.
Do you happen by chance then to know what would cause them to pull their heads out ? Or are you telling us there’s nothing that will make that happen?
Well, apparently they won’t believe anyone who tells them they will fix it. The Democrats tell them that, too, and then actually do make it better, but that doesn’t change their minds. So there is something else going on here.
I would say the odds of getting them to change are 10% or less. These are guys that watch much news they arent on forums or internet looking stuff up. We work 11-12 hours a day 6 days a week in a plant thats 95 degrees. They arent looking to be informed. Most are from rural areas. Thats why a lot of times when i read stuff on here i feel like a lot of people are out of touch with that side. Not sure how to explain it. Thats why i commented to begin with. Just struck me as odd that a person that i would assume to be an intelligent nice person would assume anyone that voted with trump was evil and should be eliminated
and they belived the democrats for years. The union to this day tells us to vote democrat no matter who is running. Whether that is local state or federal. But something changed them with trump.
Yes, I wonder what it was?
So Trump gets our troops killed. He lets a virus run all over the country to murder hundreds of thousands. Part of Trump policy when they saw it spreading in Democrat cities was to get in the way of anyone getting desperately needed supplies and testing so it would kill as many majority Democrats as possible. THIS HAPPENED IN MICHIGAN.
So… you’re still going to say people who vote for this aren’t evil?
Trump still hasn’t done a thing about Russian bounties killing our troops.
But the person lying to you will make things worse.
He already has made things worse.