Definitely think this is perma-death. Producers and actors are making a big deal over it. Of course nothing is permanent in comics, so anything is possible, but I think this incarnation is going to stick.


That was certainly not my first guess as to who would be under the gravestone. I still think the whole teaser-of-death thing was dumb, but at least it wasn’t obvious.


ugh. . . I just knew it was coming. . . but this still blows :(


Perma-death is not Arrow’s strong suit, as it seems they cure death easier than the common cold on the show. Plus with the various dimensions available, they can pull the character back in some form anytime they want. The death did have serious impact though, especially on Diggle. He is screwed and if the show were real he would probably eat a bullet in the next episode.
I had high hopes for this season of Arrow but they have instead made a mess of the show. I agree with the comments on fighting on the show. Its become a bit ridiculous. The Green Arrow is not a martial artist first, hes an archer and a strategist. Hes a sniper with incredible skills and incredible tech. Now he Kung-Fu Robin Hood. His strategy is drop his superior weapon and get into close combat. And as far as Ollie’s no kill pledge, what a crock of shit that is. Its basically in place as a plot driving device and is totally nonsensical. Its not that I have an issue with the concept but every rule has an exception and with the Arrow, this one most definitely should. If they had killed Merlin one of the several times they had the opportunity they would avoid 90% of the bullcrap they have had to face and instead moved on to an actual interesting villain. So yeah, stand on your higher moral ground when you go into a fight and try your damnedest to avoid fatalities but when someone has brought as much death and misery to your life as Merlin has, take him the fuck out. Lets see, Merlin has killed Ollie’s mother, was responsible for his fathers death, as well as the death of Ollies best friend. He killed Ollies sister as well, though shes much better now. And now Merlins actions have led directly to this death. Im a pacifist and anti death penalty but even I would have been head hunting Merlin long before this point.


I wonder if all the xxxxxx-haters are feeling a tinge of remorse? :) She started off pretty crap, but got quite good by the end I thought.


I was more glad about who didn’t die than disappointed with who did.


Yes on dimension, Merlin more complicated.

Deathstroke killed Maura Queen and a bit hard to pin that on Merlin. I don’t recall Malcolm ever killing Thea, as she’s his daughter. Turning her into a loon yes, but don’t remember killing her. He has protected her in his own twisted way.

And until now, Merlin has had special protection for being Thea’s father. Ollie knows that killing Merlin will have an incredible impact on her and tried to avoid it. I think now the Rubicon is crossed and I have a hard time seeing how Merlin doesn’t meet his justice. But the show is setting it up well with Thea being the main focus against him and not Ollie. I do like what show has done with Ollie and Merlin as it’s a clear example of Ollie rising up to become a hero and not just a killer.

I have some hope that the show is going to have a huge switch its cast. In past, it’s Ollie been the one battling darkness and being restrained. I think that conflict plot pt shifts to Diggle for next season. Thea has battled it a bit with the bloodlust but I think Diggle crosses the line from hero to killer and might have to confront that and the ramifications from it. I think show knows that Ollie going dark is long since done and I think Dig “crosses the line”.

I think Arrow is at its most interesting when it wrestles with the idea of what is a hero and what separates good guys from the bad at the end of the day.


How about when Merlin stabbed Thea with a sword? It was certainly an attempted killing, and he doesn’t get off the hook just because he knew Team Arrow wouldn’t actually let her die.


Yeah youre right on Moria Queen. I mixed up Slade with Merlin, its been awhile. As far as Thea, Merlin made Thea kill Oliver’s current love Sara in a double dose of betrayal and that forced Ras Al Ghul to kill Thea, which is exactly what Merlin planned in order to force Oliver take on Ras. So Merlin killed Thea by proxy. Anyway, like I said, I get the no kill policy, as a general rule of engagement but it cant just be that black and white. That’s just absurd. Allowing Merlin’s continued existence has time and time again caused countless death and chaos. So its great that Ollie can stand on high moral ground while people all around him continue to die as a result of his massive frikkin ego. I hope its worth the cost to him and the families of everyone whos died at Merlins hands because in the end his inaction is responsible for those deaths as well. I would get him not killing Merlin if he had done anything to try and stop him from causing further damage. But no, instead of incarcerating Merlin, he handed him the keys to the League of Assassins. Every single time Ollie has accepted help from Merlin, it has cost him or someone else dearly. No, Im not buying it.


It was definitely my hope it was her grave. I did feel a little bad but I’ve got over it. :)


Man, so I’m like, 10 episodes behind on this show and for the first time ever…I don’t really care. Sigh.


Maybe Legends of Tomorrow was just to make us feel good about Arrow.


Just watched the season finale, and my overall response is…well, it could have been worse. That applies to the whole season as well as the finale specifically. After last season, my expectations were pretty low, and season 4 was at least better than 3. Minor spoilers below, but I’m not bothering with tags since there don’t seem to be many folks keeping up with the show anyway.

That whole speech scene just did nothing for me. Some guy stands up on a car (without so much as a bullhorn) and quiets the raging mob! It is to cringe. And then Darkh and his Ghosts suddenly forget about their automatic weapons when the unarmed city-dwellers heroically enter the fight. Just…dumb.

On the other hand, I’m glad they killed off Darkh, rather than coming up with some excuse for Oliver to “subdue” him. Also, I did like finally seeing Mayor Queen at the end, after everything they did with the campaign stuff earlier on. And past-Ollie having to off Taiana fit well with the kill-'em-all guy that came off the island in season 1.

I’m pretty sure my reaction - disbelieving laughter - wasn’t what the writers had in mind when they “saved” the world from nuclear holocaust by detonating all the missiles at the top of the atmosphere. Massive EMPs, radiation belts, wiping out satellites, possibly fallout if it wasn’t quite high enough…what could possibly go wrong? Better than direct city hits, sure, but not exactly something to celebrate…and it sure would be noticeable. But as far as the show was concerned, it was all over as soon as Felicity turns 'em upside down.


Yeah, the nuclear missile stuff was ridiculous from beginning to end. If they’d had Fonzie on his water skis jumping a shark and plucking nuclear missiles out of the sky at the same time I’d have probably thought it more believable.


Uhhhhh, spoilers ahoy, and all.

No, really, spoilers.

There, now I’ve written enough lines to both hide the rest from Tapatalk’s retarded preview feature and also to stop you from scrolling down if you really don’t want to know yet.

Agreed–the entire nuclear plotline was just painfully goofy. That the tool exists at all is crazy-talk. That nukes were taken control of and launched (or almost launched) multiple times with no evident intervention by or reaction from any of the world’s superpowers is double-plus crazy. That the many issues with low-orbit detonations mentioned above weren’t dealt with at all is just sort of the shit-icing on the crazy-cake. Why the writers brought something so big and impactful in, just to lowball and undersell it every step of the way, is just beyond me.

But hey, magic super-hacking is a hallmark of Arrow, so whatever. For me, the “Handy Dandy Multi-Purpose Magical Runes We Haven’t Mentioned for 3.5 Years that Stop Death-Powered Magic Because Felicity Believes In Me!” resolution to Darkh’s magic was extremely disappointing. Having Oliver win against a 10,000-deaths-empowered Darkh by just believing harder also wasn’t great, to be honest. Like, I’m not expecting Oliver to pick up his willow-and-dragon-heartstring wand to Sectum Sempra Darkh or anything, but having an out-of-left-field Magical Gizmo Powered by Love and Friendship felt way too much like bad shonen anime/manga for me.

A season filled with increasingly poor fight choreography, a bewildering lack of actual, you know, Arrowing of motherfuckers, and an extremely drawn-out, low-drama flashback plotline (that seemingly would have been resolved in just weeks, at most, so does S5’s Flashback take more than a year to wrap up or do we just have giant chunks of unfilled time in Oliver’s backstory?) didn’t do much to inspire confidence, and the writing around the various Felicity plotlines was almost embarrassingly bad. Almost as bad as her mom’s storyline with Lance! “Sweetie, it’s more important that you pointlessly acknowledge prior knowledge to your dead daughter’s criminal activity than to keep your ENTIRE LIVELIHOOD.”


But it wasn’t all bad. Diggle’s ongoing plotline was fabulous, and I love where the show took it near the end. His final scenes were also surprisingly meaningful! The eventual resolution to the Lazarus Pit effects for Sara and Thea alike were awesome. Malcolm Merlyn is always a highlight, no matter how cheesily and pointlessly evil his appearances wind up inevitably being. Newcomer Curtis Holt was an ongoing joy in every single scene he was in, and I really, really hope he comes back and features more heavily in the future.

Darkh as a character throughout the season was also a treasure, and a far better villain than R’as. By having him around so much and so often, he had a similar “diminished threat” effect going on (badass magic and powerful backup organization notwithstanding), but his willingness to dive into cheeseball villain territory with so much talent and gusto was consistently compelling and entertaining. Bringing his family–twisted as they were–into the fold was a nice bonus. And tying in Anarky between the Darkh’s and Thea was also a surprisingly effective touch for me–the kid playing him is great.

While I know a lot of people (particularly comics grognards) lament the loss of Laurel, I think it was about the best we could have hoped for given the incredibly inconsistent and frustrating writing she’s suffered over the years. She overcame addiction, came to accept the hero within, and went out doing what she genuinely believed in and got a nice, touching moment with Oliver to boot. If the writers can actually stick to their guns for the first time in comics history ever and keep her dead, I’ll be perfectly content with how it all wound up.

And, even if a lot of the writing she had to endure delivering was laughably bad, Emily Bett Rickards is still the most gorgeous woman on television, so the show’s got that going for it.

P.S. - No Salmon Ladder = 0/10 Season, Would Not Re-Watch


Yeah, this season and particularly the finale was probably the low point for this series. Its no wonder that they spent the last 10 minutes showing everyone in The Arrow’s circle scurrying away like roaches. Nothing felt earned this year, with the exception of Diggle’s storyline. Oh and just out of curiosity, since Oliver lost his money and Felicity lost her control of Palmer Tech, just how in hell did they finance anything. They had to have tens of millions wrapped up in the lair and all of the toys. Is Felicity hacking banks part time or something? Anyway I hope they spend the summer working on the series because it is spiraling down the commode right now.


Eh, I think this was still a little better than last year’s snooze-fest.


The season as a whole, I would agree. Darhk was great fun, Diggle really shined this season, in spite of his silly helmet. Even Laurels death had some significance, something she never pulled off when she was alive. As I said, I would agree right up until that wretched season finale which thrust itself up through the earth, grabbing the whole season and dragging it down into the bowels of hell itself.


Armando really nailed the issues with the finale.


Agreed. I will add a couple things to his observations.

Almost as bad as her mom’s storyline with Lance!
What really messed this all up was the revelation that while Mom stood up as the bastion of truth and honesty regardless of the consequences, she herself had been lying to Felicity about her father for a decade or two. And yet she rips Lance for wanting to keep his job and do actual good by simply saying he was unaware of his daughters criminal activities. Oh the Hypocrisy!

A season filled with increasingly poor fight choreography, a bewildering lack of actual, you know, Arrowing of motherfuckers
I have to admit that while Oliver spent most of his time in hand to hand combat, they actually got one sequences this past season, right. In the penultimate episode, when Oliver and Diggle were running from Darhks forces in the Stepford Dome, they had a running sequence where Oliver actually used a variety of his arrows to great effect. I actually said at the time, “Holy Shit! The Green Arrow is actually using arrows!” They need more of that type of stuff and way less of the hand to hand.

and the writing around the various Felicity plotlines was almost embarrassingly bad.
This really defined the season. In a very bad way. The deconstruction of Oliver and Felicity’s relationship was so pointless it became unintentionally funny. It once again boiled down to honesty, a reoccurring theme this season. First they put a ridiculous requirement on Oliver associating with his son, which Oliver agrees to and then Felicity throws their entire relationship down the drain because Oliver kept a promise in order to have contact with his son. What a horribly nonsensical plotline.