I can empathize. I likewise feel bashed a bit in P&R here considering this board seems overwhelmingly left of center. I still enjoy the debate though and it’s good to read different viewpoints.
I am happy to oblige and check my behavior. But if you could show me an example of this kind of person I would appreciate it.
I really object to labeling all Brexiteers/all Trump supporters as racist
Brexiteers I grant you. But where are the non racist/ non bigot Trump supporters? I dont know any. Seriously. Public or private. Thats not an insult its my experience. I would be delgihted to have my experience broadened.
Again not in an adversarial way just help me out and show me the ones who are grounded in reason and debate? Because every single one I know of is either a science denier, bigot, fascist (ie: commited to disenfranchising voters, mainly POC) or racist. Again I say that as an observation not a projection or insult. Please show me the sane rational people.
I would argue that most of us are overwhelmingly left of stupid.
Fair. What we should be saying is that they voted for an agenda that benefits racists, is supported by racists, and has been called out as racist since well before the votes occurred. Bit more typing but more accurate, I’m for it.
You might have me on that one, I guess I should edit my post. My experience with Trump supporters is almost non-existent. I guess I was just extrapolating. Surely all Trump supporters can’t be science deniers, bigots, fascists or racists because there seems to be a lot of them.
No worries. To be fair to them its really difficult. I mean you have Trump himself undermining any efforts they may make to express themselves more reasonably daily.
Brexiters yeah there are perfectly nice and smart people who are in favour of Brexit. I disagree with them but I wont call them names. They also have reasonable arguments about sovereignty which are valid.
Back on topic. Betty still has it :)
“If a democracy cant change its mind, then it ceases to be a democracy”
First off, gamma’s very first posts were inaccurate portrayal’s of Clinton’s comments (see below). Which, I think can be argued, in hind sight, to be fairly accurate at that point in 2016.
“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.”
She said the other half of Trump’s supporters “feel that the government has let them down” and are “desperate for change.”
“Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well,” she said.
I would agree with your quote below if it were still 2016, just as Clinton did.
But now here we are in 2019 and the population that can be labeled as a “Trump Supporter” is smaller than it was in 2016. Largely due to those who may have voted for or supported Trump in 2016 for “rational” traditional conservative policy reasons or even just because he had a “R” after his name on the ballot can no longer be counted as a “supporter”; the remainder have earned their labels.
Now I get where you are coming from with, perhaps, an instinctual negative reaction “labeling them all”, but while, from a literal perspective, you are probably right that not everything single one of them is a racist or bigot or misogynist or etc dang if they are still all-in with Trump at this point I don’t feel much sympathy if they get inadvertently labeled as such.
I know you have edited your comments re: Trump and I personally can’t comment about Brexit, but current, 2019 Trump supporters have had plenty of time, action and evidence to see what he is about and none of it is good.
I see use of alt right terminology uncloaks itself with a “Trump supporters aren’t racist” comment. I guess Trumpalos waving a confederate flag and tiki torch is “freedom of speech” too. At least it demonstrates my narrative on where Brexiters sit in the spectrum.
Because it wasn’t a legally binding referendum, and now that we have more details, it seems abundantly clear that the original decision was based on lies, and would not serve the public interest, and the current leadership is incapable of delivering anything like a good deal, and the people who voted Brexit don’t seem to have a coherent vision of what it means.
People have the right to change their minds, countries too, and leadership should be…leading…the people.
I thought all these posts were going to be about Commons precedure, the meaningful vote, potential amendments, likely margin of loss, etc.
I was dissapoint. :(
So how does everyone think tonight’s vote will go? I think it will be closer than many pundits are suggesting. 200 seems far too high. If it loses at all, it will be the 50-80 range, not 200+.
And what happens after that? Any ideas?
I think it will be closer, but we’re talking closer than 300 last time I looked, so 50 seems pretty optimistic (if that’s the right word).
I think about 70 tories + DUP will vote against, ~20 Labour and 1 LD will vote for, there might be quite a few abstentions as well because the vote won’t be close. It will still go down by 100-130ish.
Some surprising voices have been saying “The deal is the best way forwards”, but I don’t think most of those opposed to the deal are listening.
Maths isn’t my strong point but if less than half fit the average, does that mean the average is being skewed by a few geniuses?
Like if there is a room of 100 people, and 99 are on $30,000 per year wages, but the 100th person is Jeff Bezos, then the average is…high?
That kind of thing?
Also, maybe I am being charitable, and thinking people voted for Trump not out of stupidity or racism but out of high emotions? And he did craft his appeal very well, whether or not you like it.
Obviously I don’t, but I think figuring out what he did and how (and what the losers did or didn’t do, and how) is much more productive than labelling the other side a bunch of idiots.
I say that knowing full well I have in the past labelled various Brexiteers as idiots…
It’s also skewed by a few idiots. But measures like IQ are normally distributed by definition, so it’s not clear this is a helpful description of reality. I’ve no idea how ‘intelligence’ is distributed, if it even makes sense to talk about it like that.
Anyway, @Aceris and @Ginger_Yellow: maybe I’ve just been burned before! Certainly that the government lost a a whip the day before the vote is a pretty good indication this will be a bad loss.
Okay, so what happens next? Does May just plow on, as always?
Does she have a choice?
She could resign, she could go back to the EU, she could call a GE, she could bring her vote back to the Commons, she could say she’s preparing for No Deal, she could say/do nothing at all…
What she should do is allow for indicative votes on no deal and 2nd referendum. If either wins she should try to extend A50 and trigger a GE (since a Cons government can’t be seen to have enabled 2nd referendum). If neither wins she is free to make it a choice between no deal and May’s deal, unless Labour can put together the votes for no-confidence.
The purpose of a GE would be to force Labour to end their ambiguity. The danger (from May’s perspective) in a GE is that either Labour campaigning on “Norway plus” (or “EU minus” as I prefer to call it) might manage to hang on to both their remain and leave voters, or Labour leadership are able to appeal to leavers while Labour MPs locally appeal to remainers(*).
(*: And people here seem keen to insult leavers intelligence, while forgetting that most remainers voted for a party lead by the most eurosceptic party leader we’ve seen in this country since 1983. )
That’s possible. But she’s, even as of yesterday, been damning those options.
I think there’s a good chance she just quits.
Her deal is basically the compromise between migration and the inevitable hit to the economy, yes? A Norway deal will have the Leavers frothing about migration still. So if not her deal, it’s either Remain in EU or No Deal, we’re on our own in a tanking economy. I think Corbyn actually wants that one so he can build his little socialist paradise from the ashes, but can’t dare say so.